bigjayzway Posted November 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 I can't believe this. I was in a pinch....I was far from home.....I needed to replace my rad. I had a huge hole in the tank, and after calling over 11 shops, I had no choice for the time. The tow was free(should of been over $200.00) from a buddy. I took it to my shop, there is no computer. I called 3 rad shops when I was told to do this by my mechanic, and then it was a dealer(Cadillac) that told me, they have relpaced these rads in the past with the same situation, and have had no problems. They told me as JimD said his is not equipped with the oil cooler lines. Some models had them, and some did not. I did not do this without asking a hundred questions first. My mechanic suggested it...... I confirmed it, many times over, including a dealership. What was I suppose to do? "hold on guys, I have to got home and ask the guys if I can?" NO!!! I needed to make a desicion, I did, and I have been assured by MANY shops it is fine. Scotty. I am so glad I interest you so much, you keep a log of all my posts. I am honored you are a fan of my posts? I admit I have been learning on here, and I mearly stated that if anyone on here need to do the same repair, it works. I live in Canada....I don't get the same prices as you guys do in the States. I called down there too for a rad believe it or not. They told me they did not stock that rad, and it was $448.00 at Autozone, and $418.00 at Pep boyz. I only have the one car on the road, so I could not sit and wait for a rad. I live in the country(35kms) to the closest store, and I needed something that day. Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 big, The side tank is about $30 at gmpartsdirect.com. It will take a couple of hours to replace it ... but you will keep it OEM and with cooler. I had to replace both of them right on the street...I would consider the fix you have got a temporary one. But you know better. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted November 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 big, The side tank is about $30 at gmpartsdirect.com. It will take a couple of hours to replace it ... but you will keep it OEM and with cooler. I would consider the fix you have got a temporary one. But you know better. I would love to find the original rad for this car, but the oil cooler lines will have to also be replaced. I broke one of them, while taking the rad out. I wonder if the lines are available for a good price? Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 big, The side tank is about $30 at gmpartsdirect.com. It will take a couple of hours to replace it ... but you will keep it OEM and with cooler. I would consider the fix you have got a temporary one. But you know better. I would love to find the original rad for this car, but the oil cooler lines will have to also be replaced. I broke one of them, while taking the rad out. I wonder if the lines are available for a good price? Big Jay Cooler lines should not be expensive. Call a dealer, ask for price and part number. Then find th eparts at online stores. Sometimes dealers match online prices if shipping is included. Mine did for cooling pipes I replaced recently. OEM radiator will be expensive, but the tanks are not. You can retain the core and replace just the tanks. They will come with all the gaskets. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted November 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Here is the listing for my rad at Rock auto SPECTRA PREMIUM Part # CU2280 w/ Engine Oil Cooler $318.79 Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Thats fine, my problem is that your justification for not using oil cooler lines was wrong: I removed the lines all together, and pluged the holes with M20 drain plugs. It works great! I don't pull a trailer, so it really isn't an issue Pulling a trailer has nothing to do with ENGINE oil cooling, did your mechanic say it did? AND, this blanket statement: If anyone needs to replace their rad, and is worried about the oil cooler lines, don't worry. If you got the car home, being far from home was irrelevent. Again, if you chimed in here, I certainly would have saved you a bundle and told you to take it to a radiator shop and have the side tank replaced ($50 at my radiator shop if I carry the radiator in), but you made the problem worse that it needed to be and ended up with something inferior. But I guess you were in a rush, too bad. Please don't present inferior fixes as GOOD fixes and you and I will be just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike5514 Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 This thread is amazing! we could sure use u know who 2 pages back.Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 This thread is amazing! we could sure use u know who 2 pages back.Mike We sure could, that would have ended a lot of question here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill K Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Big J vs. Scotty End of round 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Big Jay & all, I am still concerned & alarmed about the act of just removing the oil cooler lines & plugging the holes in the filter adapter. The oil that would have gone through the cooler has to by pass some where. There is usually a cooler bypass valve located upstream of the cooler. If the cooler is cold & the oil too thick, then the bypass valve is forced open to allow the oil to lubricate the engine. If this is the same valve that opens to allow the oil to bypass a cold or plugged oil filter, then the oil is not being filtered at all! The engine will run fine, but with no filtration! Now admittedly, I don't have the information peculiar to the 98 N* lubrication system at my disposal. But Jay, I would definitely check for a definitive answer. Shop around, purchase a replacement set of cooler lines and at least a replacement tank. Then at your earliest convenience get them installed. At the VERY LEAST, have a shop fabricate a short hose or pipe to allow the oil to circulate as the factory intended. I understand your need to get home as you were stranded. But that emergency has passed. You need to be absolutely POSITIVE that you have not compromised your engines lubrication & filtration system. In place of a cooler and lines, my 94 SLS a short metal pipe that comes out of the filter adapter & goes right back in. If those holes could have been safely plugged, then GM would have plugged them! That would have been a lot cheaper that a pipe with a 180 degree bend in it! Bottom Line: It is your engine, do with it what you will. Good Luck, Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Britt, I don't think the cooling lines are coming off of the oil filter adaptor in this instance I think they are coming directly out of the engine. In spite of that, its possible that this TAP is just down stream from the adaptor anyway. Since the feed line has been plugged are you implying that its possible that the pressure has been sufficiently increased to by-pass the oil filter? If I was in a money pinch I would have replaced the side tank and probably would have done it myself to save money if I couldnt afford it and many times I can't afford it, which is the reason I do a lot myself. Adallak, has successfully replaced his side tanks so I know it can be done plus the procedure has been detailed in the FSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 I am operating on the assumption that there is one bypass that services both the oil cooler and the filter. Then, if the bypass is forced to open by a plugged oil cooler circuit, the oil will also bypass the filter. If, however, there are separate bypass valves for the cooler and the filter, then that assumption is invalid. However, with the cooler circuit blocked, the oil pump will have to work against the cooler relief valve all the time. This increases the amount of work that the oil pump has to do. Increased work equals increased heat and reduced fuel mileage and oil life. Do you by chance have an oil circuit diagram for the engine in Jay's car? That would certainly help explain things. Britt Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 bestpriceradiator.com '98 Seville STS Standard Radiator: $132.12 w/o Oil Cooler Have to call for price w/Oil Cooler Call 800-632-9638 arrowheadradiator.com w/Oil Cooler: $197.00 and $201.00 (List two radiators) Call 800-823-4096 autoradiatorsdirect.com Call 888-888-1417 Must call for price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 I am operating on the assumption that there is one bypass that services both the oil cooler and the filter. Then, if the bypass is forced to open by a plugged oil cooler circuit, the oil will also bypass the filter. If, however, there are separate bypass valves for the cooler and the filter, then that assumption is invalid. However, with the cooler circuit blocked, the oil pump will have to work against the cooler relief valve all the time. This increases the amount of work that the oil pump has to do. Increased work equals increased heat and reduced fuel mileage and oil life. Do you by chance have an oil circuit diagram for the engine in Jay's car? That would certainly help explain things. Britt I will look in the 96 manual later, it sounds like Jay and I have a similar setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 .... Do you by chance have an oil circuit diagram for the engine in Jay's car? That would certainly help explain things. Britt My '98 Seville service manual does not have an oil flow diagram that I can locate. And I find only one reference in the service manual to a crankcase oil cooler connection and that is in the R&R oil filter adapter pages. The '98 manual says "....remove the oil cooler lines, if installed." Someone please explain to me in two syllable words why y'all are beating up on Jay. I think he done good! Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 One thing to keep in mind here is that the oil "cooler" is nothing more than a coiled tube in the side tank. A "heat exchanger" to be exact. Since it is surrounded by coolant, it cannot "cool" the oil or trans fluid any cooler than the coolant temp (200-220 avg.). I seem to recall the master once say that oil as well as trans fluid would not suffer any detrimental effects til it reached somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 deg. I don't know what the normal oil temp is but I would doubt it is too much more than coolant temp. Likewise I don't know what the normal (non severe service) temps are but again I don't think they are near 300. That said, and assuming that my recollection is correct, it would seem that the "coolers" are there, just incase. BigJays choice would not have been mine but, maybe he didn't commit such a big sacralige after all and is being unduely chastised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 JimD and Ranger, rgnoon and I have been talking via email. I want you to retrace the steps that occurred here. First CadiKing stepped up alarmed and asked, OIL or TRANNY cooler lines?, THAT was not clear, he was concerned that his oil (either OIL or TRANNY) would get too hot. Good concern. When I read Jay's message I thought to myself, OH NO, there was this member who sold his car only to buy it back because his tranny cooler lines were crushed and his tranny self-destructed... WOW I thought... Acklac7, CONFIRMED my thinking and referred to the same incidence. I concurred with Acklac7's thinking and FOUND and posted the link to the burned up tranny due to bad cooler lines....hoping that Jay did not screw his tranny up yet... These are posts coming from CONCERNED members! I posted a second post trying to figure out what lines he plugged... Jay posts, yes I did remove the OIL cooler lines, I removed the lines all together, and pluged the holes with M20 drain plugs.... and FOLLOWS it up with, I don't pull a trailer, so it really isn't an issue (which BLEW ME AWAY! because that statement is wrong and TOWING has NOTHING to do with the ENGINE oil needing cooling). With that statement I realize Jay does NOT understand what is going on, and THEN he follows it up with, If anyone needs to replace their rad, and is worried about the oil cooler lines, don't worry! That was the statement that bothered me a lot because of the TOWING justification. You know its one thing bbob saying its ok to plug oil cooler lines and telling it to the entire group, its entirely another thing for a member to make a statement that its ok to plug your engine oil cooler circuit it works great and anyway I don't do any towing, what? You know if the explanation made sense, and was backed up with sensible support you say, OK, that makes sense. HOWEVER, when someones actions are NOT backed up with sensible support, the board reacts aggressively to figure out what is going on. Early in the thread people who care were trying to avert a disaster for Jay. I think the thread just got out of hand, first by Jay not explaining whether we were talking about OIL or TRANNY cooling lines, secondly, Jay using the wrong support for his actions (well I don't tow anyway) and third, because of the bad statement about towing, I was upset by this statement, If anyone needs to replace their rad, and is worried about the oil cooler lines, don't worry....... and the thread got out of control. Jay, I can tell you are a nice guy, but what I don't think you understand is that we are very serious people when it comes to Cadillacs and the maintenance and care of them. I don't think you picked up on the ALARM you set off in CadiKing, acklac7 and me, and I don't think you understood that and overlooked our concerns very easily. I was also taken back by you not running this unusual move by the board before you did it to get some opinions. I can guarantee you that if I was in the same position, I WOULD have run it by the members on this board. And GUESS WHAT when you came in to discuss your radiator PROBLEM? I would have said, buy a side tank and just replace your side tank!!! Easy and CHEAP solution huh? Adallak has done it, so I know it can be done, my radiator shop will do it also. In my mind, your solution was like cutting your finger off because you have a hang nail. Oh I got rid of the hang nail guys, cut off your finger it it works, don't worry.....!!!! That is what I saw, and that is why I appeared to become aggravated, because I don't see cutting my finger off as an option, nor would I want to LOSE my oil cooling capacity. Does everyone get this now? A few people have become indignant because its Jays right to do what ever he wants with his car, and it IS his right, hell he can plant flowers in it or set fire to it if he wants. But MY main concern WAS..... IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO ELIMINATE THE OIL COOLING CAPABILITY to fix the car cheaply, just replace the SIDE TANK....and if he came HERE, we could have advised him of that... THATS ALL FOLKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted November 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 My '98 Seville service manual does not have an oil flow diagram that I can locate. And I find only one reference in the service manual to a crankcase oil cooler connection and that is in the R&R oil filter adapter pages. The '98 manual says "....remove the oil cooler lines, if installed." Someone please explain to me in two syllable words why y'all are beating up on Jay. I think he done good! Thanks JimD I would also like to remind the doubters that there was an option for this year. You could either have the cooler lines, or not have them. The factory itself gave you the option. If you didn't want them, then the same principal was done that I did. Confirmed with Leggat Cadillac, John Bear Cadillac, and Roy Foss Cadillac service departments. I have exhausted all my long distance calling cards just to get the info on this subject. I was all worried for nothing. Anyone else wishing to make more calls, is more than weclome. I think this is a frivilous arguement, and the hard on for Big Jay should come to an end on this! I am an easy going guy, but not a sit on the computer all day kind of idiot! I do make my own decisions, and usually are pretty good at it. I did this one on my own, and called a whole lot of people before I did it! Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Jay re-read my last post, you missed the entire point! NO ONE is DOUBTING that you can ELIMINATE your ENGINE OIL COOLER! IT WAS NOT NECESSARY TO DO SO! UNDERSTAND? That is the point! Talk about idiot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadian95sts Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 I think Scotty needs to go to his room for a while. Back to the name calling AGAIN!?!?!? Matt A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "darn...that was fun!" www.madd.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 I think Scotty needs to go to his room for a while. Back to the name calling AGAIN!?!?!? Matt I beg your pardon..... If you look at Jays post, he used the term IDIOT, saying sit on a computer all day long LIKE AN IDIOT!!! Who is here more than me? That was direct name calling. I simply pointed out WHO the idiot was in fact... by REMOVING his oil cooling capability WITHOUT good reason.... Like I said, I beg your pardon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 Being the upstanding person that I am I am going to post this. Today I asked a GURU very familiar with the Northstar about removing the oil cooling capability. This was his response to me: Are you talking about the engine oil cooler or the trans oil cooler? Is it a 4.1/4.5/4.9 or Northstar? In either case, really, it is perfectly fine to eliminate the engine oil cooler. It is not really required with the oils available today on a production Northstar unless the engine is being worked especially hard...like as in towing. Towing runs the engine oil temp up pretty good if hill climbing and/or hot weather is involved. An engine oil cooler is adviseable with the Northstar then. Otherwise, there is no need for it. The oil cooler was elminated from production Northstar engines back in the late 90's. Except for trailer cars. It is best to short circuit the lines, however, not just plug the oil ports. Well as many have said, removing the oil cooling capability is not a problem. I still stand by my opinion however that I would have wanted to KEEP it, and either buy the correct radiator or if I could not afford it or wait two weeks, I would have gone to a radiator shop and had the tank replaced OR, replaced the tank myself if I could not afford the radiator shops labor cost. Taking the radiator out and taking it too the shop also saves money. I did learn something however, that TOWING especially while HILL CLIMBING requires oil cooling. This is again another instance of why we miss the GURU Note his suggestion, "It is best to short circuit the lines, however, not just plug the oil ports". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadian95sts Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 I am an easy going guy, but not a sit on the computer all day kind of idiot! I think it was more a statement, implying that he does not feel the need to first post his problems here, when he is sitting on the side of the road with a blown rad. I dont think he was implying that YOU are an IDIOT for spending a lot of time on the board here. You ASSUMED that, and from one of your previous posts i got this , assume = *smurf* U ME. Matt A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "darn...that was fun!" www.madd.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 I am an easy going guy, but not a sit on the computer all day kind of idiot! I think it was more a statement, implying that he does not feel the need to first post his problems here, when he is sitting on the side of the road with a blown rad. I dont think he was implying that YOU are an IDIOT for spending a lot of time on the board here. You ASSUMED that, and from one of your previous posts i got this , assume = *smurf* U ME. Matt My my Matt, its time to chill out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadian95sts Posted November 6, 2005 Report Share Posted November 6, 2005 so first you post: Jay posts, yes I did remove the OIL cooler lines, I removed the lines all together, and pluged the holes with M20 drain plugs.... and FOLLOWS it up with, I don't pull a trailer, so it really isn't an issue (which BLEW ME AWAY! because that statement is wrong and TOWING has NOTHING to do with the ENGINE oil needing cooling). With that statement I realize Jay does NOT understand what is going on, and THEN he follows it up with, If anyone needs to replace their rad, and is worried about the oil cooler lines, don't worry! That was the statement that bothered me a lot because of the TOWING justification. then you post: In either case, really, it is perfectly fine to eliminate the engine oil cooler. It is not really required with the oils available today on a production Northstar unless the engine is being worked especially hard...like as in towing. Towing runs the engine oil temp up pretty good if hill climbing and/or hot weather is involved. An engine oil cooler is adviseable with the Northstar then. Otherwise, there is no need for it. I guess you will have to add me to the list of people who dont understand what is going on, along with jay of course. Matt A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "darn...that was fun!" www.madd.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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