2001 Deville fuel problem

[Norman L.]

The other morning when I tried to start my 2001 Deville, the engine cranked o.k. and it felt like the engine was going to start but would immediately die. It took five tries before it finally started. I called my mechanic and he thought it was probably a fuel pump. Although I was afraid it might die on the road, I took a chance and drove to his shop (25 miles away) and left it. The mechanic called the following morning and said that the fuel pressure was around 30 but should be about 40 and felt that the problem was the fuel pump. I authorized him to install the pump and he did so along with a new filter. Oh I forgot to mention that there were no DIC codes showing either before or after the pump was installed.

The car had been running a little rough prior to this incident and the idle seemed to run a little fast occasionally. Also, the car is being readied for sale and a few weeks ago, I sprayed de-greaser on the engine and hosed it down to clean the engine compartment. Maybe there is moisture somewhere? This was all mentioned to the mechanic as well.

When I started the car this morning, it hesitated briefly before starting and then stumbled once before running. I shut the engine off and started it again a few more times without any problems. Will try again in the morning when the engine is cold to see what happens. It would appear that the original problem has not been solved though. Checked the codes again and nothing comes up. Would appreciate any suggestions.

By the way, if anyone is looking for a beautiful 2001 Crimson Pearl Deville in the Phoenix or Southern CA area (a sticker on the engine says it complies with CA requirements), let me know (116,800 miles but in great shape). I need to sell it since I have the opportunity to buy a 2007 Buick LaCrosse with only 8,600 miles on it from my brother-in-law's estate. Really hate to part with the Deville but can't pass up the Buick. e-mail me at nsteiner@costreview.com for photos and list of features if interested.

[Logan]

To me it sounds like the early stages of a ripped rubber intake plenum. Just hasn't run long enough to set the lean bank codes. Every 2000-2003 engine will do this sooner or later.

About a $25 part.

[Norman L.]

The photo would indicate that since the part has a band clamp around it, this could be an easy fix but with my luck it isn't. Can it be removed to check it's condition without removing adjacent parts on either end of the plenum? Also, the engine and transmission was dropped within the last month to replace the transmission solenoid and torque converter. Could the symptoms described be a result of anything done during that procedure?

[Cadillac Jim]

Check the FPR first; that is easy. Locate the FPR near the end of the fuel rail on the rear bank. With the engine off, pull the rubber vacuum hose off and see if there is a gasoline smell (there should be NO smell of gasoline). If it's OK, that's eliminated and you can get right back to the rubber intake plenum.

[Logan]

Also, the engine and transmission was dropped within the last month to replace the transmission solenoid and torque converter. Could the symptoms described be a result of anything done during that procedure?

That is certainly a detail worth mentioning.

As for the rubber plenum....the intake has to come off to replace the rubber plenum. No coolant involved.

[Norman L.]

As I feared, when I tried to start the car this morning, it wouldn't start. Same symptoms as original. Cranks good and tries to start but immediately dies. Tried it four times this morning!!! Very frustrated especially since I am trying to sell it. What is a FPR? If there is a gasoline smell, is this something that I can replace myself? Dealer part? If not and I need to return it to my mechanic, would it be safe to drive 25 to 30 miles? Very frustrated at this point since I spent over $400 for a new fuel pump.

[Logan]

FPR = fuel pressure regulator. It is mounted on the fuel rail under the beauty cover.

Being you think you are smelling fuel...I would stop driving the car until the issue is solved. Being the engine/trans was just out there is no telling what exactly is going on....loose fuel lines...mis-routed or disconnected vacuum lines..disconnected engine grounds...who knows..

[Cadillac Jim]

Do we have the OBD codes on this car? I thought that I remembered a "no codes" remark but I don't see it in a quick review of this topic. If not, I would suggest that you try to start it, then, without turning off the key, run the codes and post them here. If you start it, you can run the codes with it idling or after it dies. Make a special note of any CURRENT codes you see.

If there are no codes and you are smelling gas, a dead fuel pump isn't likely. A bad fuel pump relay will allow the car to start but it will die immediately, before you have a chance to put it in gear. A bad fuel pump relay will throw a P0231 code. A bad fuel pump or FPR will not throw a code. If you smell gas, it's more likely to be the FPR than the fuel pump.

Yes, you can change the FPR yourself. Don't change it unless you smell gas when you pull off the vacuum hose.

Since you just had the car worked on, chances are that this is a wiring problem or some other re-installation issue. Logan knows far more than I do about those types of problems (except trashed EBTCM connectors).

[Norman L.]

I tried to start the car again a few minutes ago and it started fine this time. Without shutting the engine off, I checked the codes and nothing came up. I then pulled the vanity cover off and think I found the FPR at the right side of the rear fuel rail. It has a tiny 1/8" X 6" rubber tube that connects to the intake air portion of the engine. When I removed the tube, there was only a very faint, hardly noticeable, smell of gas. After reading Jim's post above, it seems like the fuel pump relay could be the culprit since what he describes is exactly what happen when I tried to start the engine earlier today. Is this relay located under the seat by the battery? If so, is this like a pull out/push in device like a fuse? Can it be visually be checked to see if it is working or should I just buy a new one? Wouldn't think the cost would be that much??????? I really appreciate everyone's help with this since I am an old geezer and need all the help I can get. If all of this fails and I need to go back to the rubber plenum option, is the intake a problem to R & R? Looks like the fuel rails would need to be removed??? New gaskets required? Might be better off going back to the shop. Thanks.

[BodybyFisher]

The FPR may not be your main problem but you should NEVER smell fuel there. Next time its running, take off the vacuum hose again and rev the engine and see if you see any fuel coming out. A bad FPR can cause low fuel pressure and hot starting problems.

The Fuel Pump Relay is located in the under hood relay center on the driver side wheel well. It is a plug in unit. You may be able to swap in another relay for some other system to see if that solves your problem but dont take it from a critical system. They dont cost much probably $20. If you have a scrap yard near you grab one from a junked car

The rubber plenum when it fails will cause a lean mixture and P0171 and P0174 codes. I would start with the relay. If you can get a fuel pressure gage attach it to the shrader valve on the fuel rail and test your fuel pressure THAT would be the best thing you could do right now.

If the fuel rail comes out, you could replace the injector o-rings given the age of your car. You will need a special tool to detach it from the fuel line, a quick disconnect tool.. You can reuse the intake manifold seals if they are not damaged or cracked. Ideally you should use an inch pound torque wrench to tighten the bolts, but just snug them up, dont overtighten.

[Cadillac Jim]

I ordered four fuel pump relays from Amazon when I needed one. They were about $4 each, if I recall correctly. A price of $20 from the dealer is reasonable and consistent with that, what with individual shipping, inventory tracking costs, and other infrastructure costs associated with the vehicle ILS chain for low-volume parts. I believe that the same relay is used all over the car so your dealer will probably have one in stock.

EDIT: If you order just one fuel pump relay from Amazon and don't have Prime (yearly fee!), you may have trouble beating the across-the-counter dealer price by the time you pay tax and shipping. That's why I ordered four, to keep the cost per relay down by reducing the shipping cost per relay.

[Norman L.]

Thanks guys, these tips have helped a lot so will check them out in the next few days.

[Norman L.]

Tried to start the car this morning and it hesitated but did start. Tried again and same problem. Tries to start and then suddenly dies. Still no codes.

Checked the FPR as suggested above by pulling the vacuum hose and rev the engine. No sign of gas coming out. Went to the local Buick dealer and bought a new fuel pump relay and installed it. Engine still has a hard time starting and when it did, I revved it a little and it stumbled and had a funny noise like an internal backfire. That leaves the plenum thing but it doesn't seem that the symptoms that I describe would be contributed so drastically by a leak in the plenum. I could see a rough engine but not a repeated hard start. Any other suggestions? If not, guess I will have to take it back to the mechanic but hate to keep dumping money into it since I am so anxious to sell it as noted in my original post. Thanks again, you have all been very helpful.

[Norman L.]

After mulling the situation a little bit I am wondering if the fuel system is losing it's prime somehow. The only time the hard starting occurs is when the car has set overnight and won't start until I have tried four or five times. It would appear the engine isn't getting fuel until the pump has forced gas to the engine in that period of time. Can a fuel system lose the prime. Back to the FPR, could it be leaking the fuel back down the main line if it is defective? I pulled the vacuum line off of the FPR as suggested above but it didn't shoot out any gas but maybe losing it's prime is different?????????? Please advise.

[BodybyFisher]

Buy or borrow a fuel pressure gage and attach it, the results will provide us with a lot of needed info. Expect over 40 PSI with the key on and a stable 40+ with it running and revving. Let us know

[Norman L.]

Thanks for all of your help. I am limited to what I can do any longer so am throwing in the towel and taking the car to the mechanic who installed the fuel pump for me. I have been well pleased with his work in the past and have even recommended him on this website since he is well qualified with GM products especially Corvettes and Cadillacs in the Phoenix, AZ area.