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Red light camera scam.


Bob D

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A couple of months ago, I got caught in this scam while driving a 3 ton truck with another 1000 lbs. of kitchen appliances on board. I was in the middle of a big kitchen remodel and making a run for my contractor. I was down the hill in Sacramento, on the return drive, coming through a big, wide, slow intersection. Just as I passed the traffic light, I caught a glimpse of it going yellow over my left shoulder. Now, I‘m boxed in by cars all around and behind me. ( This intersection is three lanes wide.). I continued on at a safe speed, and made the crossing. ( I was not about to speed, or slam on the brakes in that rig..) No problems anywhere….

A few weeks later I get a letter (summons) to the court of Sacramento, demanding 391.00 for running that “red” light. Along with it comes a black and white photo of me in my truck, surrounded by all those other vehicles out in that intersection. “Like Hell”!! (I’m thinking). NO WAY did I run any red light….

Well, after appearing in court and denying the charges, I was referred to a trail, which was supposed to take place today at 1:30 pm. After a few preliminary remarks the judge opened with an explanation delaying the trial to NEXT Friday at 1:30, saying there was a decision made in Calif. Superior Ct. on Tuesday which may have an impact on any decisions made today. Therefore, further review is needed…Ergo the delay.

(I have cut an pasted an article from USA Today on that decision which may have ramifications across the country..)

Yeah well, maybe that’s good news…maybe the case will be dropped…maybe not..What I want to know, and have every intention of asking the court after being found innocent ( a high probability in any case) is who is going to reimburse me for my time ( 1 ½ days off work by then) and the 210 miles at .36 cents a mile (the going business rate these days), for the total miles traveled from my home in the foothills, down to Sacramento and back THREE TIMES. Only to have it dropped… I figure the milage cost plus my time is worth a bit more than the 391.00 they’re trying to extort from me..

We’ll see…

>California judge rejects red light cameras

By Valerie Alvord, Special to USA TODAY

SAN DIEGO — A judge handed a victory Tuesday to opponents of cameras that capture pictures of motorists speeding through red lights, saying the practice in this city is unreliable.

Hundreds of thousands of motorists receive traffic tickets each year based on pictures taken by red light cameras that operate in about 60 cities and counties across the USA. Critics have called the devices "Orwellian" and said the pictures can't be trusted because the cameras can malfunction.

The ruling by San Diego Superior Court Judge Ronald Styn was the first of its kind in the nation. The ruling only applies directly to about 300 motorists fighting their tickets here. The judge threw out the tickets, saying evidence provided by the cameras was "so untrustworthy and unreliable ... that it should not be admitted."

The decision is likely to boost the growing opposition to the cameras, said Arthur Tait, attorney for the motorists. "Everyone in the country is absolutely looking at this case," Tait said. "The judge said the way the program operates in San Diego is illegal. And it basically operates the same way everywhere across the country."

Judge Styn said the San Diego program is flawed because it allows the private company that installs and operates the red light cameras to collect a portion of the $271 fine for each ticket issued. The company's cut was about $70 of each ticket. The judge ruled that a conflict of interest arises because it is also the company that decides whether a motorist could be ticketed. That violates a state law that does not allow such law enforcement programs to be operated by private companies, the judge said.

The judge gave the city the victory on a larger question, saying that using a camera to gather evidence is not unconstitutional.

"The intent of the program has been, and continues to be, public safety," San Diego Police Chief David Bejarano said.

According to insurance industry studies, about 800 people are killed and more than 200,000 injured each year as a result of motorists running red lights. In San Diego, Bejarano said, the instances of red light running declined 45% at intersections with cameras.

The city suspended the program several months ago. The city has 30 days to appeal the ruling.<

'93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast.

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Another problem with those cameras is the angle the image is taken at and the focal length of the lens. Those cameras tend to be wide angle, which means that an object appears farther away than it really is.

This means that you might in fact be out of the intersection but because of the angle and focal length of the lens, it might make the intersection appear larger than it is and it might make you appear at a different point in relation to the intersection than you really are.

The only accurate way to determine a red light run with a photograph is if the image was taken directly from above the intersection, directly centered at the intersection, and taken with a "normal" focal length lens which for a 35mm camera is a 50 to 55mm lens. A geostationary satellite, if it photographed you from directly above and centered over the intersection could determine if you ran the red light.

If you have the photograph of you running the light, it can be examined by someone who is a specialist in Photogrammetry, and you won't find these folks in most police departments. Most of them get their training in the military and it requires clearance above top secret to get FULLY trained. There are a lot of ex-military folks who work as photogrammetrists privately, they could do the necessary measurements and calculations to determine if in fact you ran that light.

As for being reimbursed for your losses, since it's a private company that runs the system of cameras and also determines who gets the ticket, I would sue them.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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A geostationary satellite, if it photographed you from directly above and centered over the intersection could determine if you ran the red light.

:D Marika,

a geostationary orbit must be in the same plane as the Earth's rotation, that is the equatorial plane.... <_>

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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Another problem with those cameras is the angle the image is taken at and the focal length of the lens.  Those cameras tend to be wide angle, which means that an object appears farther away than it really is.

This means that you might in fact be out of the intersection but because of the angle and focal length of the lens, it might make the intersection appear larger than it is and it might make you appear at a different point in relation to the intersection than you really are.

The only accurate way to determine a red light run with a photograph is if the image was taken directly from above the intersection, directly centered at the intersection, and taken with a "normal" focal length lens which for a 35mm camera is a 50 to 55mm lens.  A geostationary satellite, if it photographed you from directly above and centered over the intersection could determine if you ran the red light.

If you have the photograph of you running the light, it can be examined by someone who is a specialist in Photogrammetry, and you won't find these folks in most police departments.  Most of them get their training in the military and it requires clearance above top secret to get FULLY trained.  There are a lot of ex-military folks who work as photogrammetrists privately, they could do the necessary measurements and calculations to determine if in fact you ran that light.

As for being reimbursed for your losses, since it's a private company that runs the system of cameras and also determines who gets the ticket, I would sue them.

Thank you Marika, that is some very valuable information. I'm burning a copy of it as I type, and will add it to the notes I am taking next Friday to the trial..( If there is one..) You make some points that arm me with some very good questions and arguments.

Now that you mention it, I had a highly cleared roommate in the military many years ago that was trained in photogrammetry. He was 'on call', and would disappear sometimes in the middle of the night to analyze some just processed images from U-2 , SR-71 and sat surveillance. I wish he was close by now.. ;)

That is a good lead for the next week though, as I do know a few people with some experience in such things. I'll bring these shots supplied by the court and your argument with me.

** Good call on the accountablity issue too... You can bet-your-behind that I'm not going to just let it go... ;)

'93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast.

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:D Marika,

a geostationary orbit must be in the same plane as the Earth's rotation, that is the equatorial plane.... <_>

Oops. you're right about that, but satellites can and do take images from above, but for the most part, can only see straight down so the satellite would have to be directly overhead of an intersection in order to catch someone running a red light, accurately.

My point is, it's hard to get an accurate picture of someone running a red light with a wide angle lens off at an angle from the intersection. It's something that can be fought in a court.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Geosynchronous_satellite

Edit: However, if the intersection were located right on the equator, the geostationary satellite could take the picture. ;)

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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Thank you Marika, that is some very valuable information. I'm burning a copy of it as I type, and will add it to the notes I am taking next Friday to the trial..( If there is one..) You make some points that arm me with some very good questions and arguments.

Now that you mention it, I had a highly cleared roommate in the military many years ago that was trained in photogrammetry. He was 'on call', and would disappear sometimes in the middle of the night to analyze some just processed images from U-2 , SR-71 and sat surveillance. I wish he was close by now.. ;)

That is a good lead for the next week though, as I do know a few people with some experience in such things. I'll bring these shots supplied by the court and your argument with me.

** Good call on the accountablity issue too... You can bet-your-behind that I'm not going to just let it go... ;)

If you can do some decent resolution scans of the images, you can probably e-mail them to me and I can take a look at them and give you my "uneducated opinion" as to what I see in them. Send me a message through this board privately and I'll reply with my e-mail address if you're interested. Or you can ask PhillyDude for my e-mail address, I'm sure he can find it somewhere on the Internet...LOL!!! :lol::lol:

As a matter of information, you will need to request discovery in this case. This discovery request should be as annoying and aggravating as possible and should include requesting all known information about the camera used to take the picture, its repair and calibration records, the equipment used to process the images, the method used to print the images, equipment used to print the images, repair and calibration records for said equipment etc. etc. The more details you request in discovery, the more you will piss them off and scare them and the more likely they are to want to back down and chicken out from the situation.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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Edit: However, if the intersection were located right on the equator, the geostationary satellite could take the picture

correct... but the geostationary orbit's altitude is about 36.000 km. All spy satellites use so called inclined orbits with 700-900 km altitudes. Do you see the difference? :rolleyes:

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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Edit: However, if the intersection were located right on the equator, the geostationary satellite could take the picture

correct... but the geostationary orbit's altitude is about 36.000 km. All spy satellites use so called inclined orbits with 700-900 km altitudes. Do you see the difference? :rolleyes:

I'm sure the satellite does...LOL!!!

My example was hypothetical, it's an example of how easily an image can be distorted when taken from the wrong angle, using the wrong lens, film, paper, even if the head of the darkroom enlarger is slightly tipped, the image is distorted. Everything has to line up perfectly to get a perfectly straight image. Tough to do at a traffic intersection.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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My example was hypothetical, it's an example of how easily an image can be distorted when taken from the wrong angle, using the wrong lens, film, paper, even if the head of the darkroom enlarger is slightly tipped, the image is distorted. Everything has to line up perfectly to get a perfectly straight image. Tough to do at a traffic intersection.
if the company employs one-two good specialist they should be able to address all the technical issues. The question is - does the company really want it to be solved? you are right - photography is a very tricky thing.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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[if you can do some decent resolution scans of the images, you can probably e-mail them to me and I can take a look at them and give you my "uneducated opinion" as to what I see in them. Send me a message through this board privately and I'll reply with my e-mail address if you're interested. Or you can ask PhillyDude for my e-mail address, I'm sure he can find it somewhere on the Internet...LOL!!! :lol::lol:

I'll be it touch by e-mail over the weekend.

The 'discovery' concept will be fun in this case...I'll get a good run out of it. ;)

'93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast.

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if the company employs one-two good specialist they should be able to address all the technical issues. The question is - does the company really want it to be solved? you are right - photography is a very tricky thing.

IF, they employ one or two good specialists, that's the question. Specialists/experts cost $$$$$$$$$$ and usually lots of it. Most of those companies appear overnight and somehow get these contracts through political connections and generally employ low paid workers using inexpensive machinery prone to all sorts of problems.

The other thing that needs to be done is that case law has to be researched on the issue to find out who has lost this type of case in the past and WHY. It's always good to know about other people's mistakes so you don't end up going into court making the same mistakes.

If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans.

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IF, they employ one or two good specialists, that's the question.

:lol::lol: you are right again, I have figured out a rule - if a "hi-te" company has two engineers who know what they are talking about, that company is very lucky! :D

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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Only in California...

Not sure exactly what you mean Willie..Did you read the USA Today article I posted? It really does, and could continue to affect all of us, (the reason I posted it... ;) ) An excerpt:

>"Everyone in the country is absolutely looking at this case," Tait said. "The judge said the way the program operates in San Diego is illegal. And it basically operates the same way everywhere across the country."<

'93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast.

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See? You CAN find everything you need to know on the Internet!

Thank you, Al Gore, for inventing this wonderful thing.

Oh, PA-LEEEZE p.d. If you're going to give that joker credit for anything, add a 'laughing guy/smiley-face' to it... (at least an LOL..)... <_<

'93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast.

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My bad... I thought the obvious absurdity of the statement needed no little icon next to it... of course I don't believe Al Gore invented the Internet. No more than I believe Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman, or than I believe Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, or than I believe that the Red Sox will ever win the pennant...

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The ROI on these cameras is probably very good and they probably do help to stop red light runners. The fact that they are not "fair" is not factored in the decision to deploy. The argument would be something like "fair is what Judges decide - we only issue the citation".

Even if the cameras can be proven are wrong with a very detailed defense - only a handfull of people will protest. They will only do so - if they think there is a chance to get off - compared to all the hassle involved.

As long as the cameras and other such technology are not ruled illegal to use then this practice will continue. Consider the rental company sending speeding tickets via the GPS in their cars. This is typical, ongoing and only the tip of the 'berg.

De-sensitization of the public to this kind of "Orwellian Technology" simply requires time. Governments operate in differant time-spans than most of us (in decades at minimum).

Another sales-deployment conversation might be: "After the population turns-over (meaning the old farts need to die off) there will be a lot less resistance to the latest in law enforcement." Remember your Grampa's irritation with those new-fangled streetlights instead of a traffic Cop "We never had those contraptions when I started driving - so the heck with 'em".

Fun stuff huh ? :(

Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning.
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Read in yesterdays paper that they are seeing an increase in rear enders at intersections with red light cameras. Seems people are slamming on the brakes instead of running the light and the people behind are running into them. Geez you just can't win get plowed into by a red light runner or plowed in the rear by the guy not paying attention behind you.

Jeff

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The cops need to start enforcing the red lights.... A few months ago, I was stopped at a red light on a divided highway. Next to me was a city cop. The light turned green and I looked both ways prior to proceeding and noticed a car that was obviously not going to stop. He ran the light right in front of the cop and the cop didn't do anything...... I honked the horn and the cop looked at me and I pointed to the guy who ran the red light and the shrugged my shoulders. Only then did the cop decide to pull over the red light runner....

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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