Ed Hall Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 I keep having to add coolant all the time. Yesterday, I checked the level and the radiator was down about ½ gallon. I had topped it off a week earlier and driven about 200 miles. There are no drips on the ground and I when I changed the oil yesterday, there was no evidence of water in it. The idle is also very rough and has been gradually degrading and is most noticeable after it’s warmed up. Does this sound like a head gasket going out? I’m going to check for air bubbles when I start it up this afternoon. The engine is now at 200k miles and as far as the coolant, it has religiously been changed every 2 years for it’s entire life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 It has to be going somewhere. If it were a Northstar I would say it was the classic sign of head gasket failure. Rough idle is one of the symptoms of course. It depends how much coolant the engine is ingesting. At the beginning the coolant will get used with little to no noticeable effect. With the engine running, watch the tailpipe, it will show signs of excessive moisture beading and smell slightly sweet if it is ingesting coolant. -George Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jschunke Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Don't panic...yet. It can be something as simple as a bad radiator cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Before heading home from work today, I opened up the pressure cap and let the engine warm up. The radiator did not bubble over so I guess it passed that test. If I revved the engine up, the level in the radiator would go down 3-4 inches then as the engine settled back to idle, the radiator would overflow. I also noticed that almost all the water that I had used to fill the coolant recovery was used up just by driving 12 miles to work this morning. I have not noticed any excess moisture out of the tailpipe nor any signs of dripping under the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 That stuff is going somewhere, either out the tailpipe, or it's leaking somewhere and evaporating if it is not dripping. Try pressurizing the cooling system. See if it holds pressure. If not you should see some drips. If not, then it's probably leaking into a cylynder. Pull the plugs before you crank it so you don't hydrolock it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motor_car Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 The coolant crossover is in the intake manifold and your leak is most likely between the coolant passage and cyl 8 or 7 intake port. Replacing the intake manifold gaskets is a normal repair on the 4.5L. Time consuming but not hard to do. To diagnose the leak you can partially drain the cooling system so that the top of the engine has air in the coolant passages, presurize the system, open the throttle and listen for hissing at the throttle body. The sparkplugs in #7 or 8 should show signs of coolant too. Make sure that you have the updated spring washer type bolts all around the intake mfld, most likely they have been installed sometime in the past, if not get them from the GM dealer. Hope this helps Nacho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 AAHA! I new there was a logical explanaition. Sure beats doing head gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted June 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Replace the intake gaskets....soon. Likely the intake gasket has failed at the coolant crossover and the coolant is leaking into the oil. Are you using the coolant supplement/sealer in the system??? Everytime I change the coolant, I add 2 tubes of bars leak. I don't believe that it is leaking coolant into the oil unless it is evaporating as fast as it is leaking. I changed my oil the other day and it didn't appear to be emulsified. Could it be going out of the exhaust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I would drive for a while WITHOUT adding coolant to see whether the level of the coolant stabilizes at certain point. If so I would suggest smal cracks on the upper part of radiator tanks. The cracks expand when hot and let the coolant sip out and dry on the tank, so you cannot see any drop. look for small cracks on the tanks. because of the cracks my coolant level is 2" below the top still good enough. Never had any overheating problem ann am not going to replace the tanks. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Today I was looking at the motor for an unrelated problem and noticed coolant fontaining from a tiny crack in the plastic/rubber tee attached to coolant hoses. What a surprise! I would never see it unless revving the engine while it is cold. The termostat was closed and extra RPM increased the tressure in cooling lines. Just another thing to look at... The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 When one of those cracks goes catostrophic one day and gushes all the coolant onto the expressway be sure and tell us the story.....LOL Guru, idid take care of the cracks but still do not want to take chances. the bottle is empty of course. and i keep my eyes on the cooling system... what can i say.. I USED to be a perfectionist, but this car changed drastcaly... my approachiis simple just do/spend as much as needed to keep it running safe, do not overreact and life is short to spend a good chunk of it fixing cars The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 This happened to me on a 3.8 , I gave it a valve job, it still was messed up , part of the intake manifold, was the intake (small) water chamber that heats the air as it comes into intake under butterfly. It was made of plastic and had a hole the size of a nickle. It was spraying water along with intake air. It cost me thousands trying to let the mechanics fix it. Finally it got so bad I had to fix myself. I think when you take the intake off you will find problem. I'm not familiar with your engine. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92 deville-loveit Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 June 3, 2004 My 92 deville suffered colant loss for over 80,000 miles and if I was not carefull it overheated. Problem started after a dealer recommended radiator flush that was "routine service" and which my Dad had done at a local "quick Lube" place to save some bucks. THey failed to add GM coolant tabs after the flush and the car developed overheating problems which frustrated my Dad enough that he gave me the 10 year old car with only 32k miles. Many times the coolant light flashed on and off over the next 80k miles we drove the car in the next two years. I pressure tested it many times ... no defect found. I replaced ther radiator ... via 1 800 radiator ... been getting discount cupons and "checks " from them ever since ... still overheated but the radiator was a defininte improvement. My Dad of course added lots of coolant tabs to make up for the quick lube's ignorance or neglect. He cautioned me to do the same too ... I did .. Now in hind sight I re3alize that only mae the problem worse and even clogged up the heater core. There has been no heat in the car for 40k miles .. not much of a problem in Southern California where I live, and where my wife is the usual driver of the car ... but my wife did complain regularly that the window deforger/defroster was useless. To appease her, I also got her a nice woolen blanket that matched the red leaterh seats so she could cover her legs for her early morning use. Nice but it didn't make her all that happy. I was thinking it much easier than changing a heater core. On this arround teh country trip I have been making (alone) that blamket has been of comfort when it was in the mid fifties outside. My wife and I started this trip knowing the car had overheating problems and justified taking the car as it was so comfortalbe and we had lived with the problem for 2 years. 100 miles into the trip in Blythe, California it overheated bad, but before that it had over heated several times and greatly slowed us up as we climbed in the mountains. In Blythe I bought a new thermostat (I wanted one with a few holes in it but that didn't seem to be an option.) I also bought a new radiator cap as that was the only other thing I could buy that was cheap and might help. The thermostat was a factory 192 degree one but I debated with my self the benifits or futility of a 185 degree one. Alas I did not install the new cap on completely and the car overheated in a single lane bumper to bumper no place to pull off detour and it got really hot but it did not get as hot as the time that forced me to buy a radiator cap and thermostat. THat time I actually saw a bit of smoke under the hood and both coolant warning lights came on. I looked under that hood for 30 minutes untill I noticed the radiator cap needed to be turned anotehr 3/16 ths of an inch to be locked in place. After that I had no more overheating so I hoped that the problem was solved and so at my daughter's house in Phoenix we decided to continue the trip ... Interestingly every morning of our trip the car would aver heat in the forst 50-100 miles and be fine the reast of the day when I used my mouth and lungs to blow the coolant from the over flow tank back into the radiator after the engine had cooled enough so that it did not "gurgle" when I lifted the safety lever on the radiator cap. After the gurguling stopped, I would remove the cap and blow the coolant back into the radiator and the car ran fine the reat of the day. I suspect that engine heat and thermal expansion stopped the leakage ... leakage of what? My guess combustion gasses. By the way I have installed 4 water pumps on this car in the last year. We made our first destination to Coffee Springs Alabama to look at a farm and house we were considering buying ... been in the family for 100+ years ... plus ALabama has some interesting laws that allow many senior citizens to not pay property tax on residential property (small lot of 160 acres). I have loved this one place since frishing there as a boy 50 years ago. I wanted my wife to see it. THe next day we made it to our real destination Fort Lauderdale and had a great week there and no over heating problems till I took my wife to the airport so she could fly back home to her job and I continued on with the reat of my planned trip and went back to coffee Springs, Alabama. THere I had a great 2 weeks and fixed lots of things for two of my aunts and their husbands. It came time to leave and I checked my radiator as I had not driven the car for 2 or 3 days and it had filled it after that drive ... ALas it was very low. and no puddle and the car had not been driven. This was the very first time I had noticed a coolant loss while not being driven. Even worse the oil level was 2 inches up on the dip stick but since the car had not been driven it was not mixed water and oil chocolate milk shake mess. A clue that I had neglected but later thought about ... the oil filler cap was that ugly chocolate milkshake color. I immediately assumed a bad head gasket. One of my uncles said I could use his shed to work out of the sun. I drove the car to the other side of town (a block away) and parked under the shed roof right next to the hanging porch swing. I immediately tore into the motor. This is an area that is 50 years back in time .... rotary dail phones, only Satelitte TV, no cell phone reception and because teh telephone service was not touch tone my calling cards did not work. I was lucky I had years before sold my aunt a 200megahertc PC with a fast 33k modem or I would have been totally isolated. I used that computer to contact my best buddy and former business partner in POrtland, Oregon and he did the research for me and found this web page after finding Caddy forums where I left several messages one being "Help - Broke down in CDoffee Springs." Bbobinski and others offered great suggestions and others a few not as good. When intake manifold gaskets were suggested as the problem I was already getting the heads off with the fw meager tools that I had. (All my tools fit into a shoe box except the torque wrench I use to tighten my lug nuts and a few extentions.) Fortunately the only tools I ended up buying were scrapers and razor blades. I did make good use of my uncle's grinder with wire brush wheel and a long pair of no name heavy duty slip joint pliers that were needed to get hose clamps off. Without those pliers the job would have been much more frustrating. I also used and wore out a couple of toothbrush type wire brushes. What did I find wrong? Every gasket I pulled off looked useable. The plugs I had changed a month before the trip and all looked good. There was no ridge in the cylinders but there were marks/staining that looked to me to be possibly caused by steam. The egr tube under the throttle boddy was clogged up. there was scale in the hoses behind the back head and one looked a bit ragged so I bought a new one and also a new lower radiator hose ... both about $20 each. I decided when I finally removed the lower hose that it was just fine. Because ity was suggested that the heater problem was possibly a bad restrictor in the hoses I bought a new one of those too ... the old one was fine ... I have a "freebie" for anyone that needs one. A garden hose hooked up directly to the heater hose at full pressure did nothing .... no flow through the heater core. I decided the heater corre was clogged 100% but later when reading the trouble shooting guide in my Factory service manual (92 &93) there was a mention of a "Water Control Valve" I never found that item and just today I stopped at the dealer here in Westprot Connecticut and I was told that there was no water control valve. I spent a lot of time in the maual looking for that item but it was not shown ... nor was there a picture of the heater core assembly ... that I could find ... just possibly the weakest area of the manual. After the gaskets had hung in the sun to dry ... it was over 90 everyday ... I decided taht the head gasket cylinder rings looked like thys had gotten really hot and maybe way too hot. The intake gaskets are almost reusable but the head gaskets looked very "tired". I bought new head bolts, the water Tee, hoses and Engine oil supplemant (EOS) and gm sealant in a can as recommended in a post and a Victor head set and a timing cover set (just in case the front cover plate that is behind the water pump both of which I had replace March of this year (2004) as the front plate was eaten away in the water pump area. I did not use the timing set but getting parts in rural Alabama was a hassle and someone had to drive me so I got everything I might need the first time. THE Jacksonvile Florida warehouse did not have all 20 head bolts so I only got 16. I later descovered that at leas one of them was defective and it ruined my block. I recomend that anyone run a die over new head bolts (12mm x 1.75 pitch). Two of my head bolts stripped out as I was doing the 3 step torquing sequence. Fortuanely (I am alive and I live by God's good grace) the Cadillac dealer in OPP, ALabama said they could not get to working on my car for at least two weeks but when I mentioned that I had been a GM shop foreman and service manager (Oldsmobile back in the early 80's) they OFFERED to loan me the tools. WOW!!! By the way their labor rate was only $40 an hour ... you could actuall get something done for $20!!!!!! I accepted their generous offer even though thje honorable Bbobinski said the new recommended repair was TIMESERTS www.timesert.com I was going to do all the high torque holes (90 foot pounds) but after the warning that I might not be happy I only did 3 in the front head ... just as well as I could not access the rear head in the car most likely. By the way the easy way to change the spark plugs ... remove the valve covres and rocker arm supports ... all is easy to get too (-; just a bit of humor as I have not found any easy way to reach the plugs under normal circumstances. I only broke two plug wires getting them off this time as I took them off too soon. Had I waited it would have been much easier. But with the heads torn down access is indeed very easy. I repaired the broken wires but all is not well as when I put my hand on the distributor to adjust the timing by feel (I never have seen the factory timing mark on the crank pulley) I got shocked several times. When I returned the tools, I asked that friendly dealer on Friday afternoon if they could time my engine and they said yes ... on MOnday as they were booked solid ... just $20. On my list of tools to get is a Magnetic timing light ... since timing lights are pretty much obsolete it ought to be cheap on EBay ... maybe someone reading this has one for sale if so drop me a note ibmpro@ez2.net or bob_mc_knight@yahoo.com Also on my list is to buy is a thin wall 15mm and 17mm shallow socket and also a deep 17mm thinwall socket like waht Sears sells. Almost all my other tools came from Walmart except my wonderful GEARWRENCHes made by KD and mine were bought on "Specials" at NAPA but at Christmas time Lowes sells them very cheap too. IN ALabama Walmart's tool selection was terrible at the three super centers I searched. In Californian the smaller regular stores had 3 times as many tools. When the head bolts stripped on the front head I got a GM head gasket to replace the "used" Victor head gasket. I might have been able to reuse it but I decided giving the de3aler $25 for a new gasket was more prudent. Both of the vacuum lines to and from the EGR solinoid broke .. GM retail is anotehr $5.54 each. Tomorrow I will find out if the Westport , Connecticut dealer is going to give me a courtesy discount as I own a transmission business in Sun City Claifornia. IN California I get a 20% discount on most items but in ALabama I got a whopping 24% almost as much as the 25% I used to get in California. I put the car back together with no other problems ... I did goop up the intake gaskets as one post I read siad that it would make the gaskets reuseaqble and as I never really found anything "broke" I worried about having to redo the job. WHAt i did find was big ... the water jackets around the cylinders was half filled up with coolant tab residue ... if it isn't flushed out it stays somewhere ... radiator, heater core, hoses and IN THE BLOCK. I SPECULATE that the increased resistance to water flow is waht caused the repeated water pump failures. for one whole day I CHIPPED this hard to remove residue out with a hack say balde (actually broke the blade using it) an ice pick (old thin style) and a steak knife. I asked my aunt if it had a strong handle ... she said yes I could not hurt it ... It broke and I epoxied it back together ... in places the residue had built up at the rear of the rear cylinders so that only the upper 1.25 inches of cylinder had water flow on the rear side. None was more than 2 inches. I dug everything out to 3 inches. A vacuum cleaner was a very useful tool ... more later as I have been called to dinner by my Dad. My problems were nopt quite over when the motor was reassembled. It ran but I had computer problems ... next post my cures for those. I did not have those problems when I tore the motor apart. The TPS problems almost got serious until I figured a way to work around the computer. After I solved that problem my trip from ALabama to Connecticut two days ago was a delight! other useful tools ... a bath towel carefully tucked to cover the engine insides as I drilled on the block head bolt threads. Vaccuum also used to recover chips and helicoil tangs ... I only found 6 helicoils in 3 Caddy dealers and 10 auto parts stores as they need to be 30mm long. I used 3 and kept the other 3 for high ransom dollars (-; These are even more scarce than the tools. As for the tools I measured everything in the factory tool kit and I can make them for others or give you that information in an email. we are taling about a tap and drill and insert tool 8 inches long. 8 inches makes it the hard part. The helicoil insert tool has special calibration for properly installing the inserts for the Caddy engines and a stop colloar to insure the proper installation depth. a Mexican made carpet (popular tourist item about $5) that I put over the radiator area as I spent many hours kneeling on the front bumper and the carpet was easier on my elbows than the metal and it cover the hood latch parts. Also a stocking cap protected my head. I used a bench grinder to modify the rear exhaust manifold and parts of the front one for easier reassembly. I was able to install the rear exhaust and head as an assembly with the exhaust gasket that was in the Victor Head set. I like exhaust gaskets. When I was a GM line mechanic I hated comebacks as I did them free the second time. If the front exhast manifold had been designed a bit different it too could have been installed with the head as an assembly but the center head bolt could nto be torgued with the manifold in place. It was head bolt access that I modified the manifolds and it worked for the rear just a wee bit of beveling. I have two more weeks planned on the road. I welcome suggestions on chaning the heater core as I have dreaded that job in the past. On some cars I have drilled holes to get access but I don't know about this Caddy. 130,000 miles and this caddy does not use a driop of oil nor does my Dad's 98 Northstar which I hear is a rear leaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poobah Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable enough on this sort of thing to give any technical advice but from your photos it looks like a very sharp car - WORTH FIXING! Happiness is owning a Cadillac with no codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Good News, The car has decided to stop using water. The water in the coolant recovery bottle has stayed constant for 2 days. I'm going to drain the system and start over with fresh antifreeze, distilled water and 2 bars leak. How about re-torquing all the intake manifold bolts? I'm thinking they might be kind of loose after 16 years and 200k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Unless you replaced the tank in question you did NOT address the cracks. The tanks are nylon and unless you replaced them there is little or nothing that you can do to them to "repair" or patch them that will be effective. Guru here what I did to patch the cracks. You can see piece of green microfiber sponge pressed to the radiator by means of two pieces of steel angles. the both ends of the angles are engaged. This "construction" worked perfectly for seven months, then it shifted and let the coolant get out (not catastrofically). When I noticed the shift I put it backj but did not add coolant, since it was fine. I do not any catastrofic development before the car dies. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 adallak, I think if you inspect the inside of that tank through the upper radiator hose inlet, you'll find numerous other cracks in various stages. This area is exposed to hot coolant. I replaced one tank on a 16 year old radiator using a Vise grip and a large flat-bladed screw driver; a new one was available through ACDelco. The old one looked far worse on the inside. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 How about re-torquing all the intake manifold bolts? I'm thinking they might be kind of loose after 16 years and 200k miles. Don't touch them unless you have the factory service manuals. It is possible to distort the engine block if the recommended procedures aren't followed. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Don't touch them unless you have the factory service manuals. It is possible to distort the engine block if the recommended procedures aren't followed. I do have the factory service manual. I'm thinking I probably better just leave it alone as tightening it could possibly cause it to start leaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Guru here what I did to patch the cracks. You can see piece of green microfiber sponge pressed to the radiator by means of two pieces of steel angles. the both ends of the angles are engaged. This "construction" worked perfectly for seven months, then it shifted and let the coolant get out (not catastrofically). When I noticed the shift I put it backj but did not add coolant, since it was fine. I do not any catastrofic development before the car dies. adallak, The last time I priced a radiator for my car, it was around $120. On mine, the threads that holds the pep-cock stripped out and let all the coolant out while I was driving, so I just bought a tube of epoxy and epoxied the whole thing shut. You might try sealing the crack with a bunch of epoxy. The trick is to mix the epoxy with some flour to get it so that it's thick enough and doesn't run. My fix has lasted over a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Ed Hall, thanks for the advice. If my car looked as great as yours I would definitely spend more time and money on it. What a nice Eldo! Great composition! Are you a photographer? We have one here (Marika). Her narrow specialization is burning Japanese burners Unfortunately I cannot do any major repair since I do not have any driveway. The car is on the street all the time. adalla The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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