mikedunlop Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Hi guys i am about to replace all the brake pipes at the front up to abs controll module i have replaced many pipes on other cars, but the ones on the seville have little braided flexi sections as you come down rh side from master cylinder as the pipes near the rh drive shaft, 2 pipes have 6" braided flexi sections (stainless) the pipes carry along rh chassis leg along bellow radiator to abs module again 8" before module 2 sections of flexi can anyone tell me why the are there and can i replace them with continuous copper and leave out the flexi Thanks Mike Edinburgh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev2 Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 WARNING!!!! you cannot under any circumstances use COPPER tubing.... It might help someone help you if you tell us why you are changing the lines, Unlikely they are corroided, and there are many specs to consider... have some ideas but would like to now why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikedunlop Posted April 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Hi Kev2 i forgot to say the car is a1998 seville 4.6 i have just bought this car 2 weeks ago ,the rear pipes have been changed and cooper was used ? and this was done at a garage the previous owner told me and i have it over my inspection and this is the case So is this all wrong? i am changeing the pipes because of corrision and as there is only 1 caddilac dealer and a few hundred cars in thew whole of the uk the infomation is limited, so i would greatful for any advice and options thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev2 Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 It is not a proper repair procedure to use copper, I would fail a vehicle (lic Va. state inspector) if I noticed a repair with copper. Your being in UK where I believe the inspections are draconian at best I suggest you inquire what the standard repair there is, I can not see this as acceptable, BUT never say never. Replacement lines are sold in straight lenghts, you bend them* sold with the proper type flair**, you will likely find 4foot as well as 12inch pieces. *A nice tubing bender- they are inexpensive and make a nice professional radius, no kinks or collapsed tubing. ** there are now more flair configurations than the "double flaired" standard. A suggestion would be to bring a section of your tubing/brake line to an automotive parts store, match up the fitting ends, could be standard, or metric, with what they have in store. Another idea contact a business that specalizes in replacement brake lines to help make them, often a google search under brake lines OR stanless steal brake lines will get you some info, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikedunlop Posted April 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Hi kev 2 my friend is a Audi Bmw mechanic mot tester (ministery of transport) and copper is the most used as replacement lines and he passes them ever day ,so what is the requirement in USA ,and can you tell me why are there is braided flexi sections inserted in the brake lines thanks again Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev2 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I would suspect the flex is for vibration dampining, the other reason would be less critical to have exact length as there is some "room" for variables BUT that is unlikely in todays exacting world. Also iF the modules* are isolation mounted then the lines would need to flex to avoid defeating the intended movement and stressing the line. Very interesting the different view on copper lines.... I will look into it,(google-ing away) BUT you are governed by the MOT regs. so have at it. An old trick- we are talking circa 1950 was to form a loop in lines to allow the flex. Like the coil loops in a still. Suggestion.....its the weekend try some web searches....Know any auto racing types they may know the go to shop for this. *crossmembers, components or "T" fittings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac Jim Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Copper tubing won't withstand the pressures seen in most passenger car hydraulic braking systems. Copper is easier to bend -- and thus easier to balloon and split. Copper brake lines may go for years in normal driving with no problems. Then, when a truck with the brakes out (copper lines?) careens through a red light crossing a 85 kph zone and you step on the brakes with all your strength -- and the brakes go to the floor, the copper lines in both front and rear ruptured... Most auto parts stores stock a variety of lengths of stainless steel brake lines, and sell an inexpensive tubing bender. -- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data -- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschelle Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I have read where in Europe the use of a composition copper and steel brake line is the requirement. They are easy to form and are rust proof. I will try to find the article! Here is the link! http://64.90.169.191/applications/automoti...brake-tube.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 The US standard, and more than likely original equipment standard, is steel. Steel does rust after several years of salt spray, so it is occasionally replaced. Some areas of the vehicle (like above the rear axle) are more prone to be sprayed with water and road salt, so they tend to go first. The standard flare is the automotive "double flare", all of the fittings are designed to accept this flare, if that if what is being used on your car. Any deviation from the flare spec is subject to leaking. Copper will not withstand the high pressures encountered during a panic stop. Using copper is illegal in the USA, since, when you need your brakes the most (panic situation) a rupture of the line will cause you to lose your brakes completely! Replace any copper lines with steel before you drive the car again. The copper lines were chosen due to the fact that they are easy to bend by hand and without special tools. This alone shoud give you some idea of the relative strength of the two materials when used as brake lines. ONE exception to this hard fast rule is the possibility of the existence of copper coated steel lines, much like copperweld wire of many years ago. I have never seen it, have never heard of it for sale and find the possibility of its existence HIGHLY unlikely, but if I were to design a brake tubing, that is how it would be made. The outside would be plated in copper to resist corrosion, while the inside would be steel for the REQUIRED pressure rating. There also may exist stainless steel tubing, but for the purposes of this discussion, we'll stay away from that idea for now. The flexible braided stainless lines are there to do just exactly that, FLEX. The design of any car must allow for movement of critical parts, so that fatigue cracking does not occur and cause a leak. Eliminating the braided lines would be a terrible idea since the designer of the car identified a potential hazard from fatigue cracking if they were not in place. We all know they didn't put them there because they looked cool, it would have been much cheaper to just use solid steel, so they are REQUIRED FOR SAFETY PURPOSES! Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschelle Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Check the website I supplied the link for and here is another where they sell the copper/nickle tubing. http://www.fedhillusa.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev2 Posted April 14, 2007 Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 I read the above link, and immediately saw it was self promoting as it was not a third party review but a promotiom by the copper manufacturers. read it with great skepticism. try some of the automotive web sites....NAPA parts-universial brake line Item#: BK 8131245 has to be a equivaliant manufacturer on that small island. TRY THIS LINK http://www.fedhillusa.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikedunlop Posted April 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2007 Thanks for your input , i would like to add after asking my friend mot tester he said that he has never seen a ruptured copper line, but had seen many burst steel rusted ones he works in a large auto shop and they fit copper to audi a8 and bmw 750 , im not sure how these compare in brake pressure to the seville but i will do some research on the web ,as i intend to keep the car for a number of years i only want to do it once correctly .its a good job they dont make the rest of the car out of the same stuff they made the brake pipes , they are totally rotten ,as the rest of the car is A1, thanks again Mike Edinburgh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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