why an ES350?

[GreenMachine]

Out of Curiosity if they caddy served you so well why the change to the ES350?

I'll get back to on if I'm interested in the STS, will have to talk with my father a bit more. We're debating getting a second car (soon my brother will be getting his license so the family all using 1 car would be tough).

[maremrak]

EGreen, well I am in my early forties, have a steady job and can easily afford $537 a month to lease a brand new Lexus. So, why not. If I do not get at least $4,500 for Caddy, I will not sell it at all. Insurance quote for both cars is only 1,700 a year.

[GreenMachine]

EGreen, well I am in my early forties, have a steady job and can easily afford $537 a month to lease a brand new Lexus. So, why not. If I do not get at least $4,500 for Caddy, I will not sell it at all. Insurance quote for both cars is only 1,700 a year.

I was mainly wondering why a new Lexus over a new Cadillac?

[maremrak]

Resale value, to begin with. I have a problem selling it now for 2,000 less then Kelly Blue Book value, and I maintained it well, and it is in a great shape inside out. Unless you want to have a Caddy as a second car, or drive it forever, in a long run it doesn't pay to own one.

[Bruce Nunnally]

Edmund's does a nice comparison of True Cost to Own. Over a 5 year life, an 07 ES350 is predicted to have a cost per mile of $0.67, better than an 07 CTS 3.6 at $0.72 per mile or a Mercedes C350 at $0.83/mile. The Acura TL does somewhat better than an ES350, at $0.58/mile.

The real steals in these type analyses however are getting a prior-year model, that already has absorbed that first nasty year of depreciation. For example, Edmund's is still stuck on 06/07 as new cars, but shows a 2005 CTS to operate at a cost of $0.56/mile.

The moral is if you really want to work cost of ownership, which is when resale matters, don't buy a current year model. Shop for a discounted/depreciated used model in great shape or a leftover new car that the dealer is hard-pressed to unload.

[joeb]

the lexus is FWD? at least it used to be when it was made from the camary chassis. maybe it still is. how does a mercedes E350 compare with the lexus? ES350, Maxima, seems all carmakers have a mid-size 3.5L offering now. FWD is nice in the snow but RWD certainly feels nice for a change.

[steve6]

Resale value, to begin with. I have a problem selling it now for 2,000 less then Kelly Blue Book value, and I maintained it well, and it is in a great shape inside out. Unless you want to have a Caddy as a second car, or drive it forever, in a long run it doesn't pay to own one.

I think the main reason for this is its old(er) people that drive caddy's, and many older people are not buying 6+ year old cars that they have to maintain. They are buying new cars that have warranties. Not many younger people are going out to BUY a caddy, they might inherit them, or have them paid for by a parent, but most would be buying civic's and cobolts with BIG F'ING WINGS, if its upto them.

The fact that the 90's caddy's had cronic issues, from transmission codes(P0741 anyways) to heated seats that are guaranteed to stop working (in the 98+ sevilles) , the 2000 - 2002 sevilles has bad crank sensors (why, wasn't 20 years of putting them on cars enough to get it right??) not to mention the poor bastards that have had to deal with bad headgaskets -- these facts do not help, people base reliability alot on a car's worth. The v8 version of the new STS is already on the worst reliability lists.

The average new car loses 65% of its value in the first 5 years.

---my 4 cents.

[BodybyFisher]

Regarding the crank sensors, I think it was confirmed that Cadillac got a bad batch from a supplier that caused this problem it was not related to them not being able to 'get it right'.

This also happened in 2002 with GM CATS, they got a bad batch of CATS that clogged and caused them problems.

They are having a similar problem right now with the CTS rear differential units (GETRAG).

This is similar to the motherboard manufacturer ABIT, that purchased inferior capacitors (fraud) from a supplier that swelled up and stopped working pre-maturely and caused them a LOT of problems, I had two of the motherboards that I replaced the CAPS on and fixed the boards. This was well publicized a few years ago.

Suppliers that are suppose to provide parts to a certain specification can KILL the reputation of a company like GM or ABIT. I STILL refuse to buy a motherboard from ABIT!

By the way Steve6, where did you find that the new STS V8 is on worst reliability list?

[steve6]

Regarding the crank sensors, I think it was confirmed that Cadillac got a bad batch from a supplier that caused this problem it was not related to them not being able to 'get it right'.

This also happened in 2002 with GM CATS, they got a bad batch of CATS that clogged and caused them problems.

They are having a similar problem right now with the CTS rear differential units (GETRAG).

This is similar to the motherboard manufacturer ABIT, that purchased inferior capacitors (fraud) from a supplier that swelled up and stopped working pre-maturely and caused them a LOT of problems, I had two of the motherboards that I replaced the CAPS on and fixed the boards. This was well publicized a few years ago.

Suppliers that are suppose to provide parts to a certain specification can KILL the reputation of a company like GM or ABIT. I STILL refuse to buy a motherboard from ABIT!

By the way Steve6, where did you find that the new STS V8 is on worst reliability list?

The cap thing hit almost every computer manufacturer, IBM , Dell were hit very hard, If you read up on it, it even hit car manufacturers such as Dodge (jeep in specific from what I read years ago). At my work, we actually replaced HUNDREDS of IBM system boards that went defective cause of that cap issue, before they had relized the problem, and those machines had to be done 6 months later again. Its unfortunate that these issues can hit a manufacturer hard, but thats why having reliable parts in the first place should be priority.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023544

http://www.thesunsfinancialdiary.com/2006/...-european-made/

I have never owned a car that was not a GM car, but I do not try to smoke screen potential issues, I say it like it is. What pisses me off about the domestics is their customer service, so GM had a bad batch of crank sensors, what gets me is they would probably charge people to fix that after the warranty period. If you were to take your 2001 caddy to the dealer now and asked them to fix that defective crank sensor for free, they would laugh at you, it may not have been their fault, but it was not my fault I bought a car that had a bad part outta the factory(and frankly thats one of the reasons why GM has such bad resale values). People avoid those cars because they hear issues like this, and know that after the warranty period is up, the problem could easily come back.

My uncle had a ford windstar that had a rough idle at 35,000 km's(intermintant), he took it to the dealer many times, they couldn't figure out what was wrong, at 65,000(out of warranty) he took it back and they just happened to find the issue, and it cost him $1000. He has to fight with Ford to get his money back, what a crock of sh*t! Like wise my boss from a few years ago, had a 96 monte carlo under warranty, the key lock went bad(resiter key etc), they made him pay $750 to fix it!!! I asked him why that wouldn't be under warranty, and he had just given up argeuing with them, said he wouldnt buy another GM again.

P.S I'm waiting for real good deal on a diesel jetta to come up, surely those 98-2002 model years are gonna be worth $500 soon ... lol if you don't know what i mean just go read the reliabilty on them. proud mexican engineering!

[BodybyFisher]

Interesting, that CAP problem was worse than I thought.

In many ways I agree with you. For instance, with regard to the CTS differential, can you imagine how many people are moaning about that problem? See some of the comments in this link regarding the differential (click next see comments 11 through 19 also):

http://autos.yahoo.com/cadillac_cts-review...=1&show=atl

I brought the differential problem to my friend's attention when I drove his CTS, he had gotten used to the differential moan and thought it was his tires. GM gave HIM a hard time about it, and deny it, until I printed out a TON of links about the problem and then they replaced it. As you know a bad differential has very very obvious symptoms that can not be explained by other problems. I would have bet my life that the differential was bad. For them to tell my friend, it's normal at first and then say, 'he drove it too hard during break-in' is appalling! BESIDES the fact that my friend is not the type to drive a car hard at all.

GM supposedly did some serious testing on the CTS in Germany, how could something like the differential that has been such a problem survive a grueling testing schedule? Once one differential went bad, why didn't they put it under the microscope and harden it?

I would NOT release a car until I had beat the CRA* out of it to see its weaknesses. Now some will say that GM does that, but how the HECK did the differential problem not get fixed if they did failure testing,? The differential problem is way too prevalent for them not to have seen it! Those are the types of things that annoy me.

I recently saw a show on the SPEED channel on BMW and how they do extensive failure testing, diagnostics and performance testing on new models. When a problem arises, it is resolved in the proto-type. You know, if GM wants to survive, they need to take that approach to it and resolve problems before they hit the production vehicle. Again, some will say they do, but again, how did the differential get to production? ME? I would find a way to time-sert engines in production and to eliminate the head-gasket problem altogether, not until 90,000 or 100,000 miles. I heard someplace where they could not justify the cost of time-serting the engines in the factory, that makes NO sense to me at all. Is it worth their reputation?

They are supposedly going to run at Lemans. If I was GM, I would go to win and win big with multiple cars crossing the finish line in the top 5. There would be NO stopping me from winning it at any cost, if that would translate into sales and an improved reputation.

My Dad used to say all the time, "If you don't do it right, don't do it at all"! He was a B-17 mechanic in WW2.

[OynxSTS]

ES 350... Nicest Camry on the road...

In the past Toyota has admitted to two problems with this platform and engine series...

1) Sludge: IMO this engine was designed with pockets that hold and "cook" the oil. Toyota has replaced lots of the ES300 and ES330 motors... Maybe the 350 is better... In any event, Shhh its a big secret... You'll never read about it in Consumer Reports.... But be safe, change you oil OFTEN! and in this car I would use synthetics. They resist sludging and resist thermal breakdown.

2) Transmission harshness: This is a problem that can be traced back to the drive by wire system that started in 2005 (I think)... Under certain part throttle conditions the transmission will "rip" you one nasty shift, usually 1-2 sometimes, 2-3 always very intermittent... Sorry, nothing can be done to fix it...

Other then that a good, solid, reliable, if somewhat bland car.

Just my opinions.

[GreenMachine]

The Consumer reports report that said the RWD STS is on the unreliable list, predicted it that way, had no info to go on, just the first year "bugs" that were predicted, but generally speaking Cadillac has actually been on or the near the top of the customer satisfaction and reliability studies.

JD power "Sales Process Survey": http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/awards/in...sp?StudyID=1221

"Jaguar ranks highest in satisfying buyers with the new-vehicle sales process, receiving the highest index score since the study was redesigned five years ago. With an SSI score of 912, Jaguar leads its closest competitor, Cadillac, by 21 points. Jaguar ranks highest for a third consecutive year."

Click to make bigger:

Domestically, Cadillac leads the initial quality (read from the factory and lack of design flaws), but its all imports above them:

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/awards/in...sp?StudyID=1132

Click to make Bigger:

They are also near the top of the Long Term Reliability study:

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/awards/in...sp?StudyID=1160

Click to make bigger:

In all honesty I trust JD Power a lot more than Consumer Reports, they seem to keep all vehicles on a level playing field and most of all, have something to always back their claims, that and they seem to actually hold true Consumer opinions.

Unfortunately this doesn't really help my argument since Lexus is above caddy in those the Intial and longterm study, but not Customer Satisfaction interestingly enough. If GM provided a link to this forum with every Cadillac sold....the bandwidth with go quickly for one thing, but there would be no contest for Customer Satisfaction

If it wasn't for the LOCAL news doing a story about Toyota/Lexus sludge problem I would have never known about it, the reason they did the story is because several people had gone to the news station about Toyota/Lexus not doing anything about it and chalking it up to lemons and that they wouldn't pay for repairs, was a big lawsuit and everything. Not sure how it ended honestly.

I'd imagine Toyota was nice enough to give them credit or replace the engines since they are obviously not bean counters like GM (sarcasm ah hmm).

[OynxSTS]

Yes to e-green's post...

My dad drives a ES330... He bought it new... while he knew about the sludge and transmission problems going in...

I thought it was very interesting upon final signing of the paperwork... The salesman says

You should know that we have had to replace a few of the engines in these cars because of sludge problems. Your first oil change here is free, we would like you to do it at 3000 KM (~2000 miles) or SOONER! Do not forget an oil change, change the oil every 3000-5000KM. If you don't these engines will turn oil to sludge. Toyota and Lexus have been very generous replacing them in the past, this probably wont continue in the future.

It was like he was reading from a script... Definitely not the first time he had said it...

I told him my North* Caddy had no issue with 10,000KM (~6000Mile) oil changes... He told my dad "Don't risk that in ANY Lexus..."

They may not deprecate, buy you're going to go broke with all of the oil changes... Especially if the dealer does them!

[jgr7]

The sludge problem was on the early 3.0 L V6 only I think it was 99-2001. Toyota/Lexus ran the engine warranty out to 8yrs 80K miles for all affected engines. the problem was that the heads were designed to heat up faster to aid with lower emissions. The oil was then to drain through oil passages in the head that were to small and to hot when the oil got dirty it would cause the sludging. The cure seems to be to use good oil and change no more than 5000 miles. It did not affect the 3.3L engines. The Transmission problem was also an emission caused problem it is believed. They were trying to squeeze more MPGs out and programed the transmission to up shift with a complete throttle lift. This would reduce engine RPM and save fuel. The problem was that if you let off of the throttle to lets say merge into a spot on the freeway and then got on the gas it would rev and then slam into a lower gear causing quite a jolt. Along comes DBW, the drive by wire computer would delay throttle response until the transmission would shift back down. This saved the transmission but made people think there was something wrong with the engine and pump the gas which really confused the computer. Toyota/Lexus came up with a new flash for the computer that has mixed results. There is lots of info out there if you look.

Jeff

[OynxSTS]

I hope you're right... Apparently our salesman wasn't taking any chances... or maybe he is just trying to up-sell oil changes... In any event a quick Google of "Lexus", "330" and "Sludge" yields a whole whack of PO'ed RX 330 owners with sludged up and seized motors...

Are the RX 330s different motors then the ES 330s?

In any event my Dad's expensive Camry is getting lots of oil... frequently... it can only help.

[jgr7]

OynxSTS I got my letter out of my RX300 from the class action settlement ,the offending models were 4cyl Camry 97-01 6cyl Camry 97-02, Solara 4cyl 99-01 6cyl 99-02, Sienna 6cyl 89-02, Avalon 6cyl 97-02, Celica 4cyl 97-99, Highlander 6 cyl 01-02, ES 300 97-02, RX 300 99-02.

That's all of them I did a lot of research before I bought my 2000 RX and it is well known to Toyota/Lexus.

Jeff

[GreenMachine]

The sludge problem was on the early 3.0 L V6 only I think it was 99-2001. Toyota/Lexus ran the engine warranty out to 8yrs 80K miles for all affected engines. the problem was that the heads were designed to heat up faster to aid with lower emissions. The oil was then to drain through oil passages in the head that were to small and to hot when the oil got dirty it would cause the sludging. The cure seems to be to use good oil and change no more than 5000 miles. It did not affect the 3.3L engines. The Transmission problem was also an emission caused problem it is believed. They were trying to squeeze more MPGs out and programed the transmission to up shift with a complete throttle lift. This would reduce engine RPM and save fuel. The problem was that if you let off of the throttle to lets say merge into a spot on the freeway and then got on the gas it would rev and then slam into a lower gear causing quite a jolt. Along comes DBW, the drive by wire computer would delay throttle response until the transmission would shift back down. This saved the transmission but made people think there was something wrong with the engine and pump the gas which really confused the computer. Toyota/Lexus came up with a new flash for the computer that has mixed results. There is lots of info out there if you look.

Jeff

What intresting about what you post is that the 4t80e and Northstar do that very same thing, I always kinda chuckle when people talk about that Nissan that doesn't have shift shock, unless I open it up all the way I never really feel the shift changes. I can't recall if the era of the 4.9 was the same but since its the same transmission I think the 4.9 caddys were just as smooth.

Maybe thats a side effect of having so many gears? (I actually don't know how many gears the Lexus with the shift thing has) but I have to say for the most part, the Northstar gets shifted around pretty good by its trans, press the gas down and it'll give you the power you want. Not bad for a "3 speed with 1 overdrive". I can only imagine what fuel economy would look like with 5 or 6 speed, but thats really pushing it for FWD, probably why the SRX/STS versions come with 5/6 speeds if my memory serves me correctly. Obviously more gears isn't always better with how the Mercedes many speed trannys are having issues.