Kodiak Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 I have spent hours reading thru this forum and even was diverted off to another forum while researching this topic.. My 01 STS has the shakes. I bought the car thinking tire balance. With 89k miles and 4 worn Michelin Energy Plus, I thought ok, no problem.... 4 new Pirelli PZero Nero's a spin balance and an alignment and I will be good to go... What started out as a dim shimmy between 60 and 75 mph was now a generous helping of wobble from 65 on up ( I quit trying to outrun that wobble at about 105 mph). Specially bad cornering at that speed. Took the car back to Belle Tire the next morning and ask them to wire wheel the inside of the wheel ( I could have done but raining buckets that morning) and check the balance and scrape the chunks of corroded alloy off the rotors. Ok, wheels next to shot at the mating surface (salt on Mi roads in winter eats everything). Took the car out and it was about 75% gone, but still 65 mph on up... Originally it would at least go away at about 75 mph. So I came home and started reading and reading. I ordered a good used set of 17 in wheels (identical to mine) off ebay on Thurs.... received them Sat. Brought them to Discount (Belle couldn't do a road force balance), and had the tires switched and RFB'd. OK, now I'm at 80 - 85% good. Again 65mph on up. Two of the tires were good, one had to be rim matched once and the remaining tire twice. The guy doing the job said if he couldn't get it on the second attempt bring the tire back. What I didn't get were the numbers (pounds of force) for each tire, learned that here just today. Called Belle today and told the man that sold me the tires what was up and he almost seemed offended that I went to Discount to get them RFB'd. Said he didn't think it was the tires and it's probably the car, the rims or even the incompetance of the balance job. Great, I'm going to have to get into it with a pencil-neck sales geek half my age. Go figure.... I am going to have him check the runout on the tires and rims. Those tires looked out-of-round to me as they spun on the GSP9700. I'm no engineer, nor much of a mechanic anymore... my days of having my cars dissassembled from one end of the driveway to other are all but over... I like tinkering more nowadays.. brakes, batts, starters, alt., etc... Don't have the time or place for much more than that anymore.. and my hats off to you guys that do... Like I said, I've read thru this forum, and thanks, to you guys who are mechanical diehards here, you give me strength and hope in moments of crisis..... And prey that kid at Belle does the right thing and doesn't go home with rubber in his teeth.. If only I was smart enough to join this forum before I bought a shaker. I'll post as this progresses. Thanks, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Does your Seville sound like this: Shimmy, Shimmy, Ko-Ko-Bop...Shimmy...Shimmy...Bop.... Shimmy, Shimmy, Ko-Ko-Bop...Shimmy...Shimmy....Bop....? And does the Seville dance a bit? If so, nothing to worry about--It’s just Little Anthony & the Imperials on the radio. Sorry, couldn't help myself...getting tired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 I'm out of it too, I actually thought it was funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Hi Doug, When she starts shaking, do you feel it in the steering wheel or the seat? "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Had the same thing while under warrenty. Dealer replaced many parts with no improvment. Bought new tires (Michillin Pilot Sport AS) hoping the old RSA'S were the problem. No worky. Found a TSB on the issue and the end result was to get a proper balancing with Road Force. (Hunter GSP) They didn't have to adjust the tire to the rim, Roard Force was OK, but a good balancing job on the Hunter cleared it up. Don't give up. These cars when balanced properly are the smoothest running car I have been in. I just put on a set of Perrilli Zero Nero,s, had them balanced and Road Forced at a different place that installed them and the old girl is running smooth as a silk purse again. Maybe an ever so slight shake at the 65mph this time but I think it might be because the guy used inside weights this time. I might take it back and get him to do it again when I have time but it is really not much of a vibration. 2001 STS Mettalic Otter Grey, Black Leather, 213,000 kilometers - miles - ? Still running strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Hi Doug, When she starts shaking, do you feel it in the steering wheel or the seat? I can feel it in both, more in the seat, less in the wheel. Some through the floor. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Rickster, Sounds similar to my situation. I have two suspect tires that didn't road force good and had to be rotated to the rim, one of them twice. The problem now is getting the guy that sold me the tire to trust the job of the guy that balanced the tire. I too had them use taped weights inside (didnt' want to mess up the pretty chrome ). I'm willing to sacrifice the "look" to get a smooth ride, if need be. At this point if the guy who sold me the tires won't help, I will buy two new tires from the same place that does the RFB and deal directly with a Pirelli Rep. to force the return. Well... that's the plan anyway..... Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Useless but interesting info: Long before I bought this Caddy, my cousin bought a used (03 or 04) Audi A8 (AWD V8). He let me drive it and get my impression.. it's a quick car (though later he was sorely beat by a new 300 C Hemi). Anyway as I was driving I could feel a vibration in the car at highway speed, similar to what I have with mine. Well since I pointed it out, he could feel it too.... He brought to a shop I think called AutoEurope where they eat, breath and sh** these cars, they told to him junk the Pirelli's (not sure which model) and go with Yokohama Avid H4S. His car now handles and rides like new. The Pirelli's he had would also "track" grooved blacktop and "climb" in and out wear dips (for lack of better description ) in the road. So, IMHO, not just a Caddy problem, I'm thinking so-so tires on a more finely tuned car problem. I can't wait to FEEL my STS "smooth as glass" at highway and above speeds. I like this car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 1998 and newer Seville. 2000 and newer Deville. Shimmy... Unless you have the worlds most perfect tires. You will feel a shimmy. Did a paper 20 years ago in college....no 2 tires are the same. They look the same...but they are different. IMO....the Cadillacs are simply set up too soft for real world tires and road conditions. Jiggle city. #1 is the cradle is way too loose. Everything...Everything is mounted to the cradle...steering rack...engine...trans...control arms....tires....everything.. #2 issue is engine, cradle, body relationship. Must be perfect or you will get jiggle. There are alignment holes on the cradle to align with the body. If the cradle has ever bumped a curb...its out. I attached a couple of pics. #1 is cradle position. #2 is urethane skake board wheel mounted, trapped, between the cradle and body. This forces the suspension to actualy do its job. #3 is side engine mounts are too loose. You can pry the mount inbetween the mount stud and control arm with a 2x4. Picture shows urethane scooter wheel mounted in side engine mount. Also note silver C washers. My current best set up is 1 washer drivers side. 2 passenger side. Note: You can only use one washer drivers side....or axle boot clamp will rub on coolant line. The goal with the washers is axle shaft angles/load. Currently running less then perfect 50K Michelins. Certainly picking up some powertrain noise...but minimal 70mph shim. I expect some vibs...any rotating object has some vib. But much tighter feel...but in a good way...think Mercedes or BMW feel... Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Are your Pirelli's the 235/55 17? So far I have found these tires the best riding out of the 3 sets that have been on this car. They run very straight. No tracking or climbing so far. I did have one of the tires road force way out. 44lbs. Took it back to the tire place and he did replace it but with hesitation. Try to get 4 tires that road force without adjusting. How was the run out on the rims? 2001 STS Mettalic Otter Grey, Black Leather, 213,000 kilometers - miles - ? Still running strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve6 Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 has it not been mentioned before to have them balanced a different way for this? Not using only the spline in the middle and the cone type device , but doing it a different way? I remember reading that in old posts......... Cant remember what they called it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Are your Pirelli's the 235/55 17? So far I have found these tires the best riding out of the 3 sets that have been on this car. They run very straight. No tracking or climbing so far. I did have one of the tires road force way out. 44lbs. Took it back to the tire place and he did replace it but with hesitation. Try to get 4 tires that road force without adjusting. How was the run out on the rims? The rims were in good shape. Stopped in this a.m. to talk to the kid from Belle that sold me the tires, much more compliant when he had to look me in the eye BTW. I was on my way to work and didn't have time. Will bring the car to him tomorrow morning. He's going to check the runout of the tires. I know when Discount road forced them I could physically see lumpy tires, the rims weren't out to the eye at all. I'm not sure what model my cousin took off his Audi, but his size was 255/40 17. Mine are the 235/55 17's like yours. If Yokohama made my size I would have bought them. Also the P Nero Zero's I bought last week are a new tread design. Belle was closing out the old ones for $99 ea. mounted, balanced, out-the-door, close to TireRacks price. He talked me into the newer design, better guarantee for replacement if needed down the road $120 ea. Another $20 ea. to have Discount Tire Road Force them. I am going to eliminate the tires being the culprit before I go any further. Even if this guy has to check the runout on his entire stock to get 4 good ones. My old tires ran better with about a 65-75 dim vibration, now 60 on up. Something made it worse, if after all that if I was still a 65-75 dim vibration, I would start thinking elsewhere. steve6, That would be using a lug adapter as opposed to the cone on the balancer. I'm learning much reading all those posts ..... spit that out like I knew what I was saying! And yea I had them use that too. Logan, I think I read many of your posts from the other forum.... Was sent over to that forum somewhere in the middle of "ruby's vibrator" post in this forum. Good reading material. Learned alot... Interesting though.... This forum seemed to lean on the tires being the culprit with not all, but many good results... and that forum seemed to lean on the cars frame set up (cradle, mounts, etc..) and drive components. I'm weighing it all up and really think it's a combo, like you mention, soft framework and out-of-round tires.... at least that's what I'm understanding. Cheapest fix for me now is good round tires... It'll be all downhill from there if that doesn't work..... Anyone want to congratulate me on my first Caddy?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 1998 and newer Seville. 2000 and newer Deville. Shimmy... #1 is the cradle is way too loose. Everything...Everything is mounted to the cradle...steering rack...engine...trans...control arms....tires....everything.. #2 issue is engine, cradle, body relationship. Must be perfect or you will get jiggle. There are alignment holes on the cradle to align with the body. If the cradle has ever bumped a curb...its out. Thanks, I'll check the alignment holes while it's up on the hoist. Wouldn't that have been checked prior to/with a wheel alignment??? I'll look to be sure... thanks for the pics. One would think some engineer at an after market mount manufacturer could see $$$$ potential here..... same mounts.... stiffer compounds. Any of you guys come up with something to patent? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Rickster, Sounds similar to my situation. I have two suspect tires that didn't road force good and had to be rotated to the rim, one of them twice. The problem now is getting the guy that sold me the tire to trust the job of the guy that balanced the tire. I too had them use taped weights inside (didn't' want to mess up the pretty chrome ). I'm willing to sacrifice the "look" to get a smooth ride, if need be. At this point if the guy who sold me the tires won't help, I will buy two new tires from the same place that does the RFB and deal directly with a Pirelli Rep. to force the return. Well... that's the plan anyway..... Doug I think your solution is in this quote... Did you get a report that tell you your before and after readings??? Unless it starts out reading ZERO pounds and this is VERY rare; EVERY tire should be rotated on the rim during the RFB process ... And if they know what they are doing... Each tire should be "rotated" only once... The road force machine will "pass" a tire at 15 pounds of force or less... and on most cars you can't feel this... on ours you can... You really need single digit or less reading on all four tires... REFUSE any tire over 12 pounds With this process you should receive a report that tells you the force of each tire... This report is important for lots of reasons... First, low before and after numbers tell you they are well built tires, second matching similar reading "across" the car will help and putting the lowest two upfront also helps... And last and most important, if the best they can do is something like 20 pounds... the tire is crap and should be returned... The rep will probably ask to see the report. Take the car back to the shop that did the RFB.. have them do it again... tell them you want the very best balance possible on each tire... not just a marginal pass... and ask them for a copy of the before and after report... My car had the 65 shimmy too. Mine kicked in exactly at 68 mph and stopped at 73 MPH... But a proper RFB (at the same shop Rickster recommended) solved my issue... Logan is right too though... shakes can also occur from a loose or misaligned engine cradle, broken engine mounts, off balance rotors, or some suspension issues... But it is easy to prove that it is the tires... pump all of the tires to 30 PSI, take out to the highway and note the exact speed that the shake starts. (you can use the tap up and tap down cruise control to get this speed).. Now pump them to 40 PSI, and drive the same highway again... If the speed that the shake starts changes you have a bad tire... You might find that overinflating the tires solves your problem... On my car 40 PSI tires moved the shake start up to 72 MPH made the shake almost imperceptible... But please, don't run over inflated tire for any great distance.. this is dangerous. Good Luck Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yeap...been at alignment shops....mention the holes need to be lined up first....or you are simply throwing your money away. Alignment shop says.....we dont do that. Ok...."drop the car." You have to do it yourself. There really is no such thing as a perfect tire. The best RF ones go to the GM factory....the next the OEM dealer...the next to the tire dealer....the next to Tire Rack....down the chain. No 2 tires are exactly the same. They will look the same. But each one is a compromise. Tires are extremely complex to make. Even the Hunter website mentions no 2 tires are the same...see Hunter site FAQ. IMO. Tires are really only good for about 25-30k miles. After that, they have hit so many potholes and railroad tracks they must be bad. 1 time around the earth....thats alot...think about it...they have done their job...25K-30k.. AND, if these Sevilles and Devilles need perfect tires.....and the best RF ones available are a $1000 Michelin set from the Cadillac dealer.....hhhhhhmmmmmm.....and really only good for 25K....not doing that. I will fix the car to run ok on a $300 set from Tire Rack. Maybe get 35k miles for 1/3 price. Then another $300...not $1000... Caution: It should be mentioned...it needs to be: 'Cadillac dealer selling GM part # Michelin tires.' NOT A 'Cadillac dealer simply selling Michelin tires.' No one ever complains about vibration in the rear....its all up front. The Deville has about 60% of the vehicle weight on the front. The urethane skate board wheels, scooter wheels, washers= $25. That being said, on the old SLS, I could get 80K of good running on Michelin X Ones. So stiff they did not wear. It was dream come true...I wish I could get X ones in a 235-55-17. Currently have a new set in the garage of Continetials. 235-55-17. Tire Rack shipped to my door for $70 each. WOW. Really nervous about mounting the tires...car is running pretty good on the Michelins right now. But I know one rear one has a bad belt...and the other rear is leaking...2 fronts are getting thin.. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yeap...been at alignment shops....mention the holes need to be lined up first....or you are simply throwing your money away. Alignment shop says.....we dont do that. Ok...."drop the car." You have to do it yourself. There really is no such thing as a perfect tire. The best RF ones go to the GM factory....the next the OEM dealer...the next to the tire dealer....the next to Tire Rack....down the chain. No 2 tires are exactly the same. They will look the same. But each one is a compromise. Tires are extremely complex to make. Even the Hunter website mentions no 2 tires are the same...see Hunter site FAQ. IMO. Tires are really only good for about 25-30k miles. After that, they have hit so many potholes and railroad tracks they must be bad. 1 time around the earth....thats alot...think about it...they have done their job...25K-30k.. AND, if these Sevilles and Devilles need perfect tires.....and the best RF ones available are a $1000 Michelin set from the Cadillac dealer.....hhhhhhmmmmmm.....and really only good for 25K....not doing that. I will fix the car to run ok on a $300 set from Tire Rack. Maybe get 35k miles for 1/3 price. Then another $300...not $1000... Caution: It should be mentioned...it needs to be: 'Cadillac dealer selling GM part # Michelin tires.' NOT A 'Cadillac dealer simply selling Michelin tires.' No one ever complains about vibration in the rear....its all up front. The Deville has about 60% of the vehicle weight on the front. The urethane skate board wheels, scooter wheels, washers= $25. That being said, on the old SLS, I could get 80K of good running on Michelin X Ones. So stiff they did not wear. It was dream come true...I wish I could get X ones in a 235-55-17. Currently have a new set in the garage of Continetials. 235-55-17. Tire Rack shipped to my door for $70 each. WOW. Really nervous about mounting the tires...car is running pretty good on the Michelins right now. But I know one rear one has a bad belt...and the other rear is leaking...the 2 fronts are getting thin..The Contis have a rating of 520 vs the Michelin 400. It should be also mentioned. I have the 'pre load' on the steering rack set at one half fase turn. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Approx 1 year ago I purchased the P-Zero-Nero and one of them had to be replaced because it was shapped like an egg. beforehand they tried rotating the tire on the rim but the results were the same. Afterwards and with a good balance job she rides real smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodiak Posted October 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2006 Well I took the car in this morning and had the manager check the runout and just as I suspected, 1 tire was ok then next was just able to balance, the third was the one that had to rim matched once, it was so egg shaped he didn't try to balance. I told him the forth had to be rim matched twice, he didn't bother to even spin that one. He doesn't have the GSP9700 Hunter for a road force, But I guess if you get someone who has a feel for a good spin and an eye... who knows? can't hurt right? He changed them for a set of Michelin Energy Plus (Not my first choice, but he stocked 'em) Spun the rims before putting the rubber on and they were perfect THANKS ANDY'S WHOLESALE! for some good used rims. He did a spin balance on a Coats 1055. 1st one didn't need any weights, the rest were pretty typical. Used taped weights. Put it all together and down the road I went, straight to the nearest expressway.... and man did that feel good..... 60mph, 65, 70.... good so far... 75 ... hey this is great..... 80 well I think I feel something.... 85 smooth as glass..... Gonna be late for a 10 o'clock with an electrician at one of my buildings I maintain... so off the highway. I'll have to check better later... Back on the highway tonight and it rides great! I can feel just a bit 78mph to 81mph but hey, when I recoup from new car, wheels, tires, balances.... I'll get them road forced. I don't think the Michelins are as quiet, they steer a little different, but I'll sacrifice. They don't seem to have resistance to the road like the Pirelli's, seems like the car rolls easier and I don't mean because of a difference in roundness. Once again TIRES AND BALANCE. That STS is one tire picky mutha. Thanks .... EVERYONE! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted October 14, 2006 Report Share Posted October 14, 2006 Cool! I told you so Make sure when you have this set RFB that you ask for the LOWEST RFB numbers possible... Or in other words, Have them "turn" each tire... whether they "pass" or not Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.