1964 429 cad for round track racing???

[sawman48]

i need to know about the heads on this engine,the good the bad the???????the one i have is a 1964 or any thing you know about engine

going to us in 2300lb car, imca open wheel class

[BodybyFisher]

V-8 Overhead valves

Cast iron block

Displacement: 429 cubic inches

Bore and stroke: 4.13 x 4.00 inches

Compression ratio: 10.5:1

Horsepower: 340 @ 4600 rpm

Five main bearings

Hydraulic valve lifters

Carburetion: Carter AFB four-barrel model 3655S

I have an old Chiltons, when I get a chance later I will scan the valve train info if its there.

[Cadillac Jim]

Have you considered the 500 cid V8? There is an interesting video on this board of one of these on a drag strip.

The stock heads are probably best for oval racing. Porting the heads will result in better flow bench numbers for very high valve lift at very high RPM while hurting you at the mid-range where you need the torque for the ends of the oval. And, a cam that would take advantage of ported heads would not be useful for oval racing.

These older V8's were rated for marine use (someone correct me if this is not the case for the 429) which means that there is sufficient cooling capability in the casting for sustained high power output for long periods. That's extremely important for oval racing.

For the best performance and reliability of the engine, I would blueprint and balance it, and limit head work to smoothing the ports myself, or just leave the heads alone, and limit RPM to 6,000 or 7,000 max for valve train reliability. If you find that this engine gives you a one-gear oval track lap with 3,500 rpm to 5,000 rpm, that would be great because this engine can do that all day without getting the oil dirty, and you can use the stock valve gear.

The intake and exhaust will determine how this engine performs on an oval track. Both will resonate to give you a torque peak. Your best performance for exhaust is a two 4-to-one manifolds feeding into a collector/resonator; see the exhaust racing houses like Borla and Flowmaster for parts.

Of course, this engine is capable of giving good oval track performance in a 2300 pound car as a drop-in of a used, high mileage engine with just an oil change. I'm sure that you understand that this engine, with original cast iron intake and exhaust manifolds, will be in the 650-pound to 800 pound range. Aluminum intake manifold and stainless steel exhaust headers will decrease the weight by 100 pounds or so. As a drop-in, you will use the stock flywheel and transmission, which will be larger and heavier than a manual transmission and clutch. If you change the flywheel to add a clutch, you will need to re-balance the engine.

Have a nice day.

[sawman48]

this engine in 1964 was up dated, it now comes in at 585lb.the smallest big block built.please check to see if i am right.with 340hp and 480 t and 585lb if this engine can be built for round track racing it might be the thing for me.thanks johnny

[Cadillac Jim]

Go for it. As for building it, I would get aftermarket intake manifold and carburetor for round/oval racing, racing exhaust manifolds and pipes/resonators, racing flywheel and clutch to go with the transmission of your choice, as much radiator as you can find, and balance/blueprint the engine. A good cam and distributor for your application is a good idea.

The cam provider will be able to tell you much more about the heads than I could. A cam for an application must be developed with a flow bench and heads, and they will know what the issues are, if any, as part of the cam lobe profile development. You can take this up with them when you negotiate the cam. Some fabricators like to sell the cam, heads, and valve train as a package, and will take your parts as core in an exchange deal. If, as I suspect, you can use the stock heads for round track racking, they will know that.

Isn't the 500 cid engine basically the same castings? If so, you could get even more cubes with negligible increase in weight.

People here will have intense interest in your progress, experiences, and questions in building the engine and the car, and will want to follow your success in racing. Be sure and keep us posted, and give us URL's to follow you and your car.

[sawman48]

the class i will be running in is a nation wide class with imca.this is dirt round track,and i think the 500 is to much engine,+ it comes in 60lbs more and in a 2300 lb car that is a lot.the 429 is real close to the weight of a small block chevy,which is the engine most use.but dose not have the low end at low rpm to pull off the turnes like the 429.we have aready talked with(my engine builder)comp cams and found a new old stock cam core(was we happy about that!!)that we are having them get ready.i do not have the paper work here at home but the lift was .540 it will be 2800 to 6500 rpm they said.just need to know all i can about the heads.can not find any one who has raced them.thanks johnny

[BodybyFisher]

I didnt realize that the chiltons I had didnt go back to 64 to 67 when the 429 was in production. They went to the 472 in 68, and in 64 some were 390 and some were 429. The 429 was linked to the Turbo Hydromatic while the 390 was linked to the Hydromatic (Reverse was all the way right on the selector). I had a 65 and 66 with the 429, I LOVED IT.... and I loved it way better than my 74 with the 500, which I thought had great torque but to me it was a pig.

If you go to the library you will find older chiltons and motors publications and you will find a lot more. I just did a search and copied the info here:

ENGINE: Eight-cylinder, 340 H.P., overhead, 90 degrees V-type; bore 4.13"; stroke 4.0"; displacement 429 cu. In. Max. torque 480 ft.-lbs. Engine mounted in rubber at three points. Compression ratio 10.5 to 1.

PISTONS: Aluminum alloy, slipper type to reduce friction surfaces and permit nesting between crankshaft counterweights. Two compression rings, one oil ring with expander; top compression ring chrome-plated to minimize wear on cylinder walls. Recessed contour in piston head increases turbulence for fast, complete burning of fuel-air mixture.

LUBRICATION: Full pressure. Full-flow oil filter standard.

ELECTRICAL SYSTEM: 12-volt, 13-plate battery. High capacity 42 Amp. generator (now 55 Amp. on air cond. cars and Seventy-Five Series).

HYDRA-MATIC DRIVE: Fully automatic, step-gear type. Controlled fluid coupling on forward gear set for smoother shifts. Provides two Drive Ranges, Low Range and Reverse.

TURBO HYDRA-MATIC: Fully automatic, torque converter type. Converter multiplies engine torque for increased driving thrust at rear wheels during acceleration in any gear (low, intermediate or high).

Turbo Hydra-Matic, 2.94:1 rear axle ratio (optional 3.21:1, "75" = 3.77:1),

0-80 in 15.5 seconds., top speed 120-125 mph, gas mileage 12-15 mpg ("Eldorado" = 8-14 mpg, "75" = 10-16 mpg)

Bore 4.13

Stroke 4.0

Head CC 85

Rod Length 6.5

Compression Height 1.4

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadill...tion/message/50

As far as I know there are no hot rod parts for the '63 390 and the

closely related '64-'67 429. This is a completely different engine

family from the '49-'62 Cad even though the '63 is 390 cu in too.

There were a lot of hot rod parts for the '49-'62 Cad engine back in

the day. This engine family along with the smaller & less

powerful '49 Olds was the first modern production(OHV) V-8, which

grew from 331 to 390 in its final '62 appearance, and was accordingly

extensively raced (until the small block Chevy made its appearance

in '55). Look at Ebay for Dual Quad manifolds, cams, heads etc. Also

Hemmings.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadill...on/message/1398

I'm installing a '62 390 into my '48 Studebaker pickup, and have

ran up against the same problem, I do have the factory Tri-Power and

2x4 manifolds, would like to get an aluminum 2x4 intake to save some

weight, and have been looking for years now, the last one I saw

advertised went for over a $1000!

What makes it extra ridiculous is that for my 'lowly' Studebaker V-

8, I can get brand new aluminum intakes, water manifolds, pulleys,

even aluminum cyl. heads ready to bolt on and run and all at prices

quite reasonable.

Its really kind of wierd given how popular the early Caddy engines

were in rodding and engine swapping, that about all that's to be

found for them any more are a few stock rebuild parts, this for a

engine that in its day was a 100 times more popular and respected

than the Studebaker was.

It is obvious that the Stude fans retained their enthusiasim for

the only engine they had, while the Cad fans moved on to the bigger

472-500 series, and everything is being produced now is for these.

At least at this point, the 331-390-429 engines have "fallen

through the cracks" of hot rodding, as have the early Olds Rocket's,

although they both still get a lot of lip service in the hot rodding

community, virtually no company produces anything for them.

Only question is, will they just die off and fade from memory, or

will someone step up and make the parts available to return them to

being a viable choice in hot rodding?

I had 2 500s that I could have built for my rod, but chose to go

with 390 anyway because I wanted a 'period' rod, like I remembered

from the '50s, and even with all the difficulties in finding the hop-

up parts I want, I have no regrets.

[sawman48]

you guys dont quit on me i know there is more out there on this engine :mellow:one person told me that 455 buick pistons will work in this engine.if so that realy helps as there are a lot of pistons out there for buick

[Cadillac Jim]

You can probably tell by the piston specs in the rebuild tables of a Chilton. If the bore, piston pin size, and piston crown height match, the pistons will probably work. If they do, anyone who sells pistons for the Buick 455 will know that they will work on the Caddy 429, whether they list the Caddy or not, so I would call and ask -- and not take "no" for an answer until you get someone on the phone who really knows.

If parts are available for the 472 and 500, most of them will work on the 429. Like the pistions, call when you see something for the 472 or 500 and ask for 429 parts. Here are the bores and strokes:

1964 4.13 4 8 428.6866539

1969 4.3 4.06 8 471.6749511

1973 4.3 4.304 8 500.0219186

The bigger engines have a much larger bore, which will cause problems with the 429 heads on the bigger motors, but the 472/500 heads may or may not work on the 429, with a higher compression ratio.

[sawman48]

thankyou Jim

[Cadillac Jim]

Uh, that would be a lower compression ratio. Compression ratio is

CR=((engine cc)/8)/(head cc) + 1

so, if engine cc is larger, compression ratio is larger.

I think that the stock 429 heads should be fine for circle racing with RPMs in the 2800 to 6500 RPM range. With blueprinting and balancing, the bottom end should be fine. I'm not sure, but I think this engine has roller tappets (Cadillac has had roller tappets on most of its engines since 1915). I would emphasize lighter lifters over stronger valve springs to get the 6500 RPM continuously with high reliability. That means mechanical lifters, unless you know something that I don't. The racing lifters and other valve train made for the 472 and 500 should be OK for the 429.

We have Buick 455 pistons (check this) with stock as back-up, valve train, stock heads with polished ports, intake and exhaust for the 472, and only 50 more pounds than a bow-tie 355. Your only competition would be a bow-tie small-block 400, and with its siamesed bores it wouldn't keep power through a 15-minute circle track race and might be a steam hazard toward the end. Your cam will come from Harvey Crane or some such, and you already have one lined up. The flywheel should be an easy fabrication. I would use a purpose-build racing clutch. The stock water pump should be OK. With a block drilled for hydraulic lifters but running mechanical lifters, you should have plenty of oil at 45 psi or so using the stock oil pump shimmed for higher peak pressure, or you can use 472/500 gear. The stock cam chain should be fine to 6500 rpm.

Are you missing anything?

[sawman48]

what i dont understand is why this engine has not been used for racing,that i can find.nobody has told me any thing bad about it .i know there are not many parts for racing around,no INTAKES,HEADERS and on and on .will have to build them i guess.but that is fine.so i am looking for the bad on this engine too,anyone know any of the bad,so that i can try to fix. thanks everbody,johnny (i am going with POWERGLIDE TRANS NO clutch less weight)

[BodybyFisher]

what i dont understand is why this engine has not been used for racing,that i can find.nobody has told me any thing bad about it .i know there are not many parts for racing around,no INTAKES,HEADERS and on and on .will have to build them i guess.but that is fine.so i am looking for the bad on this engine too,anyone know any of the bad,so that i can try to fix. thanks everbody,johnny (i am going with POWERGLIDE TRANS NO clutch less weight)

The BAD is that parts are not readily available. The 429 is a great engine but you can not easily get high performance valve trains for it I am sure. Compare that to a 427.

Chevy engines make much more sense as you can get parts for them, the 396, 409, 427 and 454 as an example..

That is the direction I would go due to the availability of parts and performance components, its 'different' to run a Cadillac engine but not cost effective or efficient, see this:

http://chevystreetperformance.com/chevy_crate_engines.htm

See this 500 ci Caddy

http://www.schwartzperformance.com/cadillac.htm

Kanter seems to have rebuilding kits for Caddy engines:

http://www.kanter.com/p17-can.html

Check this:

http://www.rpmrons.com/Cadillac.html

And this:

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/Rocker_Arm_...assemblies.html

Down the middle of this page you will see a reference to valve train parts for the Cadillac 500 cu, if you search this CRANE site you will see they produce products for the 472 and 500

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=newsLetters&no=174

[Cadillac Jim]

Intake and exhaust manifolds and valve train gear for 472/500 probably will on the 429. If the deck height is different, the intake manifolds for 472/500 will need to be milled for the 429.

[KHE]

You might want to have a look at this forum - it is specific to the big block Cadillac engines.

http://forums.500cid.com/

[sawman48]

thanks KHE

[Cadillac Jim]

If you think that's scary, look at this thread:

http://www.cadillacpower.com/forum/index.p...ic,2334.40.html

They are talking about a 425 (1977-1979) as opposed to a 429 (1964-1967) so I don't know if the weight is good for you. However this thread tells us that 472/500 parts will work on the 425, as well as thing like Fort 460 intakes and Olds 455 rods. I would look at the problems seen in 6400 RPM shift points, too -- they seemed to think that you need a rod cage to use the stock rods without bearing problems.

Please keep us up to date over here.

[sawman48]

(The BAD is that parts are not readily available. The 429 is a great engine but you can not easily get high performance valve trains for it I am sure. Compare that to a 427.)

(Chevy engines make much more sense as you can get parts for them, the 396, 409, 427 and 454 as an example.. )

The reason i am looking at the 429 is the weight.(around 585lb)if you will check all these chevy engines(big blocks) are way heavy and is why no one uses a big block in a round track 2300lb car.most all use the small block chevy.but the low end power is week.to be able to us the low end (over 100 more ft. lb. at around 3000 rpm)of the 429 with out the weight of a big block would be great.because most races are won coming out of the turn where rpm drops to around 3000 rpm.so the work of finding and building parts is ok if that is alll that is wrong with this engine.like the 425 is bad about the cranks coming out of them.THAT IS REAL TROUBLE THANKS AGAIN please keep it up you are helping a lot,johnny

[BodybyFisher]

how about a northstar thats a light engine... see this http://www.chrfab.com/

[Cadillac Jim]

Northstar for circle racing???? Why didn't I think of that ... take a look at Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators:

http://www.chrfab.com

They will sell you parts, exchange for rebuilt parts, or sell you a complete engine to your specificaitons, including module. You might consider a lower overall gear ratio and run this engine at a higher RPM than the Chevvys to take full advantage of the better-breathing but smaller engine. For circle racing, I would call them and ask about one of the low to middle range cams with head work. Then, you could run in, say, the 4000 RPM to 7500 RPM range. This will give you real performance across the entire RPM range with proven reliability. Ask CHRFAB about cam, head work, and RPM range. They sell turbo engines as well as carbuetor conversions for the fuel injection.

This engine is a real brick. They've used it at Indianapolis (4.0 liters, from the Oldsmobile Aurora) and its construction includes a main bearing cage with the lower half in a sub-block with cross-bolted main bearings.

The only caveat is that I see from the FSM that this engine is not rated for marine use. The first thing you want to ask CHRFAB is how much experience they have with marine, oval track, and/or round track applications. CHRFAB has been around for years so they will have had people try this with their engines, and they will have an answer.

[sawman48]

Jim,we have already started on the 429.got part of the parts in so we will have to try this engine. Northstar for circle racing???? that is something to think about,we will look at that for the next engine (unless the 429 can do all we want )not everbody will be able to build a 429 cadillac.so if it works it might give an edge for a while.and i guess that is what we all are looking for.i sure like reading all these cadillac ideals.thanks Johnny

[Cadillac Jim]

My feeling is that a near-stock 429 could give you an edge. A lot of the stuff you see on the caddyspeed forum is for street-class drag racing and other short-term all-out stuff. If you go to mechanical lifters and a powerglide, blueprinting and balancing you should be able to run 3500-5500 all day at half/full throttle without breaking a sweat. I'm not sure an oil-filled torque converter is really lighter than a clutch but having both hands and full attnetion on the job of driving is worth a lot in short-track racing, and the Chaparrals proved the raceworthiness of the Powerglide.

[sawman48]

hello again JIM,i am with you about the near stock 429,we will be going with bigger valves in the heads,just cleaning the ports and matching gaskets.and milling them to bring up the compression.thinking of using a flat top piston,not the dished.have not got the pistons yet,but thinking around 12.5-1.and will be running on Methanol,have pump and carb in hand.like i said before,engine builder got with comp cams and said they came up with a very nice cam to work with this setup. as you can see we are very far along on this engine.but still LOOKING.never know what someone might know about this little known engine.thanks very very much for all replys,Johnny(ps it will be a direct drive powerglide,no torque converter and a reworked valvebody for clutch)

[BodybyFisher]

I actually rebuilt a 429 in a 66 caddy convertible, heads reconditioned (replaced valves, valve guides, seats, etc), new push rods, lifters, rings and rod bearings with the engine in the car... Spend the month of August 1974 doing it... You mentioning those dished pistons reminded me of that..

[sawman48]

the dish in those pistons are odd,and deep