4.6 Northstar

[logg]

I've been looking at 4 used 97 Caddy's all with Northstar motors and all with well over 100K miles (115k to 166K). All the cars look great and have been taken care of. I guess my question would be, at what point is there to many miles on the drivetrain to make it a dependable car? What should I really pay attention to when checking these cars out ? Any help would be appreciated.

[Marika]

I've been looking at 4 used 97 Caddy's all with Northstar motors and all with well over 100K miles (115k to 166K). All the cars look great and have been taken care of. I guess my question would be, at what point is there to many miles on the drivetrain to make it a dependable car? What should I really pay attention to when checking these cars out ? Any help would be appreciated.

Any time you plan on buying a used car, you should have the car inspected by a trustworthy mechanic who is **knowledgeable about Cadillacs**. Believe me when I say, working on a Cadillac IS a specialty and not every mechanic knows what the heck he or she is doing when it comes to Caddys.

Check for codes and looks for signs of problems that might be obvious such as blue, white or black smoke coming from the exhaust. Listen for noises, clicking, ticking, knocking, banging. Look for leaks under the car.

Ask to see the repair and maintenance records for the car. Be wary of anyone who tells you there are none. At 100,000 miles a Northstar is ready for it's first tune up. Make sure it was done completely and thoroughly. Check CARFAX albeit, it's not a complete check but it MIGHT reveal past damage to the vehicle, but don't depend entirely upon CARFAX.

Fluids - When were they last changed. If the owner says the transmission or cooling system were flushed, be careful. FLUSHING of the transmission or cooling system is NOT recommended and can DAMAGE these systems so be very careful if the owner uses the word "flushed".

My '83 Chevy has over 200,000 miles on it and still runs silent and like a clock but I carefully maintain the car and all repairs were done. So there's almost no such thing as "too many miles". It's how the car was treated and maintained during those miles that makes the difference.

[JIMDTS]

There are many northstars with well over 200k on them ..I would imagine the key to finding a good one is the service history of the car.If it was not known I would stay away from the car.

Good Luck

Jim

[Dasher]

The Northstar is a very reliable engine and many go over 200k miles w/o a problem. I drove a 1993 193k miles and it was still going strong.

There are many other things that may call for big repair and maintenance costs, however. Those luxury STS's have a lot of gadgets that can go bad at high mileage and they could be of far more concern to you than the engine ever would be.

Just a "for instance" the Ride Control System. The 4 struts can run over $600 each and there are accelerometers, level sensors, etc. that can run $300 apiece.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy one if the price is right; but you should be aware that these problems are out there and some of them will surely befall you between 100 and 200k. Good luck.

[Ranger]

Some one posted not long ago with over 300K

[Marika]

Some one posted not long ago with over 300K

I think I remember that car. Actually, I think it was the one for sale on Ebay. Located out in Texas, if I recall.

[Ranger]

Some one posted not long ago with over 300K 

I think I remember that car. Actually, I think it was the one for sale on Ebay. Located out in Texas, if I recall.

Marika,

There were 2 I believe. The one on ebay and another I think was owned by someone who posted here. Can't recall what the post was about but I think he had 312K.

[Marika]

When do you think we'll get a diesel engine with a turbo from Cadillac?

[Ranger]

I'm not sure the public, or the General for that matter is ready for another diesel Caddy just yet (been there). I know it would be a REAL diesel but old memories die hard. The Cimmeron is still brought up here occasionally and it still has a leaves a bad taste iin everyones mouth. Remember what Guru said last time it was brought up...."forget the Cimmeron, PLEASE!"

[JohnnyG]

Putting a diesel in a car is the most expensive way anyone has ever though of to ruin a perfectly good automobile. If you can stand the noise and the stink and the low availability of fuel and the maintenance.....go ahead and spend your money on a Mercedes or a Volvo or a VW. And as far as I'm concerned, that goes for light duty trucks as well. I have yet to meet anyone who is completely happy with a diesel powered truck of under one ton capacity. It's more a case of wanting to be like the "Big Dogs" than it is economical or pleasant. Yeah, they may say they're happy, but people say they are happy with fog lights too....just as worthless.

Sorry to rant, just my own personal perspective. Just start a new thread if you feel the need to reply, I didn't really intend to hijack this one, it just happened.

[ThisoneSTS]

on the diesel subject, my dad has a cunnings diesel, that truck pulled, hauled, pushed, and it did anything you wanted it to. you are right "under the one ton" category they suck. but on the big trucks the diesel engine with the "bigger engine" is very reliable and considered one of the technological advances in the truck industry. just a thought, got a little bothered when diesel engine was put down. but hey thats just me.

Reggie

[Marika]

on the diesel subject, my dad has a cunnings diesel, that truck pulled, hauled, pushed, and it did anything you wanted it to. you are right "under the one ton" category they suck. but on the big trucks the diesel engine with the "bigger engine" is very reliable and considered one of the technological advances in the truck industry. just a thought, got a little bothered when diesel engine was put down. but hey thats just me.

Reggie

Oddly enough, I was going to mention the Cummins Diesel engine which is so "unpopular" that it's got a six month waiting period for people who have ordered them for their Dodge trucks.

By the way, Diesel doesn't generate NOX like a gasoline engine does and therefore, a properly maintained diesel engine doesn't contribute to air pollution like a gas engine does. Plus, diesel engines last MUCH longer than gas engines do.

[JasonA]

Modern diesels aren't like their predecessors at all. People remember the old 300SD Mercedes and 350 V8 diesels from Oldsmobile and get a bad after taste. But those people also haven't driven or been around a modern diesel engine, and they don't know that they're just as smooth and WAY more powerful (torque) than a comparable gas engine. If I had any real work to do, no matter what size pickup truck, I'd order the diesel option. We had a Ford Powerstroke diesel and that engine was great. We also added the Banks Powerpack to it and it would REALLY peg the boost gauge (26 psi!). Insane amounts of power, and better gas mileage than if we went with the 6.8L V-10 or the old 7.4L V-8.

As far as cars...I'm not sure I'd be ready to buy a diesel car yet. Availability of fuel is sometimes an issue, but it's something you live with if you prefer the diesel way of live. And now with the advent of organic diesel fuel mixes (bio diesel), the future of diesel engines is very promising as a clean and efficient mode of power generation.

[JohnnyG]

Your bio-diesel idea is a noble one, but it ain't gonna happen. But I'm glad you reminded me, I was going to try to offer that one to the public. It might work in this area, lots of John Deeres being warmed up as we speak.

What the modern diesel gives up in NOX it makes up for in SO2. So the government has come up with a solution for you...it's called ULSD. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, and guess what, you now get to have a catalytic converter as well! So now, in addition to being noisy and smelly and have a narrow power band unless you boost the crap out of them and intercool 'em, you also get to pay more for your fuel!

Yes, the BTU/gallon is there, so you can do some real work, but in the small trucks, do yourself a favor and just buy a big belt buckle.

I did my first survey today on "Lubricity Additive Injection" equipment. So it seems to me that the new gov't mandated fuel even needs a little help to maintain that extraordinary longevity. What does this mean to you? It'll cost more.

[JasonA]

Dude, do some research before you post something! Biodiesel is currently being used the world over and is proving, in many cases, to be a notable substitute for regular diesel fuel. There's a rock quarry/cement company in Arizona which uses B100 (100% vegetable-based fuel) in their fleet successfully. Do a search for "biodiesel" in Google and find hundreds of links where folks are purchasing Bxx fuels from local distributors and using them in diesel cars and trucks on the road every day. You can run Bxx mixes in your unmodified diesel.

Of course it'll take a while for it to be common place. The flex-fuel stations never really came to fruition, at least in our area. We're still trying to get a flex-fuel station here on post to power all the DoD vehicles that were purchased with the flex-fuel equipment (but run on 100% gasoline). It's a slow process. And biodiesel may not be the end-all of diesel fuels; it may just be a stepping stone to something better. But you'll never get there if you don't take the first step.

Here are some folks taking that first step now:

http://www.biodieselnow.com/testimonials.asp

The point is, diesels are a very economic means of internal combustion and the Europeans are way ahead of us in that technology. Just think about that when a TDI Volkswagen Toureg pulls up next to you at the light and out runs you to 60 mph (instrumented testing shows 6-flat runs 0-60 for those). It's a V-10 diesel that is supposedly as quiet as a gasoline engine. I've never heard one yet, but a buddy at work has a TDI Jetta and it's one frisky machine, and you'd never know it sipped diesel fuel if he didn't pull up to the green pump at the gas stations. Yeah, they're turbocharged and intercooled. So what? The end result is a much harder working engine and that's all I care about (in a truck). A big belt buckle, like a gas engine, isn't going to pull your 40' 26,000-lb 5th wheel RV trailer up the rockies very easily. The diesel engine will, and it'll just keep asking for more the whole way up the mountain.

Like I said before, normal cars aren't given that duty, so gasoline engines seem the best answer for propulsion -- here in America. But that's also because we don't have any good diesel engines for our cars, or a widespread network of diesel stations like Europe has. I understand diesels there are as common as gasoline engines, and they're making diesel work very well in everyday applications.

[Chris]

I read Top Gear, a British car mag by the BBC. It looks like ~1/2 of all cars being sold in the UK are diesel now. Most of these are ~2.0l. Great fuel economy of course, and lower CO2 emissions. If you go there and drive in the diesels, it feels very much the same as driving a gasoline "petrol"-powered car.

I had an '84 Jetta diesel running strong at 300k when I took it off the road in 2001 (making room for the Maxima - the only problem with the jetta was that the heat from the exhaust kept putting holes in the pipe). Averaged over 60mpg even on its final days, though it really didnt encourage aggressive driving the way the Maxima/STS do

I would love to drive a V10 TD Toureg, see what they are like. When I ordered my truck, I almost went for the 6.0L Powerstroke TD, but opted for the the 5.4 so I could go with the new body style (F150 instead of F250SD).

[JohnnyG]

Biodiesel is OUT! It ain't gonna happen. One customer does not the public make. Do you have any idea of how much fuel I move in one day? How about 10,000,000 gallons. Do you know how much of that is biodiesel? 0 Do you know how much "biodiesel" (the actual stuff produced from soybeans or whatever) would actually be used if 100% of it was biodiesel? 2,000,000 gallons IF you are lucky! YOU do the reaserch, biodiesel is 20% vegetable oil or old French Fry grease and 80% good old Arabian Light Crude, MAX.

[JasonA]

YOU do the reaserch, biodiesel is 20% vegetable oil or old French Fry grease and 80% good old Arabian Light Crude, MAX.

As you and I both know, there are different blends of biodiesel available. B20 is what you're mentioning -- 20% organic and 80% crude. B100 would be 100% organic compounds.

Here, an Arizona school district has started running B20 in their school busses:

http://www.carbohydrateeconomy.org/News/news.cfm?News_ID=166

This is the concrete plant fleet I mentioned earlier, running B100:

http://www.afdc.doe.gov/documents/altfueln...re_arizona.html

We'll all see what the future is for biodiesel fuel. Some argue that we shouldn't be using farm fields to produce fuel for our machines -- that we should be using them to produce fuel for our bodies. Others argue that this would provide an economic stimulus to American farmers. But it's no longer simply individuals going out into their backyards and cooking it up from the breakfast sausage grease.

[JohnnyG]

I hate to bring this OFF TOPIC post back, but I learned a little bit about Biodiesel at our area meeting over the last two days that I feel should be added here. Three issues mainly with this stuff that bears watching..separation, cold filter plugging, and microbial growth. It seems that the vegetable oil or organic portion of this stuff tends to fall out of suspension if not kept agitated, not a great thing. Cold filter plugging is the tendency for fuel to gel under cold temps., typically about 0 degrees F for the petroleum stuff. Vegetable products or animal fats tend to solidify at warmer temps than 0, so it make sense that the Governor of Michigan would make it mandantory (RIGHT!). Biodiesel is more prone to microbial growth or bacterial activity...this causes stringy masses or black solids to be produced in the storage tank, which can also plug filters.

I requsted permission to handle the stuff at my supply point, but those that were aware of the associated drawbacks were not willing to deal with the potential problems. As anyone familiar with some of the Quaker State or Pennzoil problems of about 25 years ago can attest....once your quality image is destroyed by one incident you may not ever get back the trust of the public. Not worth the risk.

I'm not saying that all user of this fuel will have problems, I'm not saying that all of the problems will occur, all I'm saying is that there are POTENTIAL problems that the users should be aware of and that some of those problems MIGHT present an unacceptable risk to the reputation of the sellers.

[JasonA]

True, concur with all of it. And like I said before, biodiesel may not be the be-all and end-all of future diesel fuels. I'm just excited that there's a lot of research and experiementation happening in the world of Otto.