JimD Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Sorry to take this so far away from your original concern, Jason! But. I agree with GM/Cadillac's position of a highly damped coolant temperature indication on the DIC for '98 - '04 Sevilles. Ninety percent of our fellow Cadillac drivers do not need to be informed of and alarmed by the normal coolant temperature fluctuations during stop and go driving with A/C OFF. Using an interface box and a laptop, I have the ability to observe real time coolant temperature under (sort of) controlled conditions; vehicle inside garage, no airflow, A/C off, engine at idle, ambient temperature approx. 80 F. Both radiator fans are toggled ON at low speed at 220 F and toggled OFF at 214 F. During these fan cycles, the temperature gauge on the DIC moved less than 1/2 the width of the needle. Can you imagine the clamor if there was an oil pressure gauge on the DIC and someone actually observed a pressure of 5 PSI (normal) at idle on a heat-soaked engine? Oil pressure gauges are absent for good reason. One more apology to Jason. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 The thermostat in my car is an ACDelco thermostat, installed about 50,000 miles ago. It's a standard replacement unit. With the original thermostat, the temperature during cruise would be about 194-196. With the new thermostat, the temperature during cruise is about 190-192. Just variances in manufacturing I think; I guess I got a "cold one". The only reason I was concerned about the "quick" increase in coolant temperature is because I thought the fans SHOULD be on, but the temperature was still rising. Turns out, it was probably cold enough outside for the A/C to NOT be on, so the fans probably weren't even supposed to be on, which accounts for the temperature swings. Mine will go to 222 pretty quickly during no A/C traffic crawls, and the fans will cool it down to 213 pretty quickly. I'm not concerned about this at all... I just thought it odd to be doing that when I thought the A/C was on...but it must not have been. I verified that again this morning. It was cool, in the mid 50s. I had the HVAC set on auto, at 70. The mode switched to bi-level, and stayed there the whole trip to work. In traffic, the temperture inched up into the mid 210s, but lowered again when driving. The A/C must not have been on this morning. During warmer weather, when the A/C is on, the temperature stays very solid, below 200, even in traffic. I inspected the radiator hose connections very carefully, but it doesn't look like they removed the radiator. I will call them at lunch today to make an appointment to bring it back to them regarding the warm A/C at idle/traffic. The analog needle on the pre-98 cars is also damped. Mine will read one needle-width to the left of 12:00 for all temperatures between about 185 and 219. Once the coolant temperature swells above 220, the needle will move one needle's width to the RIGHT of 12:00. But by then, the cooling fans come on and bring it back down. My service manual indicate they come on at about 229, but mine engage at an indicated 222. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 Jason, A/C should be on in AUTO unless the OAT (Outside Air Temp) is below 40 degrees or so. You'd have to check the FSM for the exact temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 . . . . I agree, I'd like to see a "real" guage. If their gonna dummy it up, they may as well just put a sticker of a guage at normal temp there. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Jason, A/C should be on in AUTO unless the OAT (Outside Air Temp) is below 40 degrees or so. You'd have to check the FSM for the exact temp. That's what I thought. My '97 FSM says 40*F. But my system is clearly not engaging the compressor at cooler temperatures below about 55*F or so. Yesterday, on the way home, I sat in a lot of traffic with temps in the low 80s and the coolant temperature never rose above 196, so I know the cooling system is working properly, when it's requested. I'm not worried about the system not engaging at cooler temperatures because it's keeping the car comfortable anyway. Perhaps the air is dry enough right now, but maybe won't be in the midst of summer, and the A/C will be on more. I'm dropping it back off tonight after work so they can check the system over again. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 I called the shop and talked to the service manager. He said they pulled the refrigerant back out of it to verify that it had the right charge, and he said it did. He also said that he agreed that it may not have been cooling as well as it should have, but he wasn't sure if it was the automatic temperature control scaling back on the temperture because of the ambient temperature in the car. He said that if I'd let him keep it one more night, he'd put a new compressor on it to see if that fixes the problem. Other than the compressor, and assuming the correct charge, I'm not sure what else it could be. I know there are pressure cycling switches and thermister switches and that type of thing, but I assume that they're okay. Maybe not. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Fixed. They put another new compressor on it and it runs real cold now. He said "it wasn't putting out on the low side." Either way, that sucker is cold now. And I sat in a mile of idling traffic to get back on Fort Bragg at the height of the lunch rush when all the soldiers are due back and the air was very cold (set on 70 AUTO) and the engine never rose above 197*F. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Cool! There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebby Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Fixed. They put another new compressor on it and it runs real cold now. He said "it wasn't putting out on the low side." Either way, that sucker is cold now. And I sat in a mile of idling traffic to get back on Fort Bragg at the height of the lunch rush when all the soldiers are due back and the air was very cold (set on 70 AUTO) and the engine never rose above 197*F. What is the temp. out the vent when you are set at the lowest setting? the best I can get is 10C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 What is the temp. out the vent when you are set at the lowest setting? the best I can get is 10C. 10*C is 50*F. That's pretty darn cold, and real close to spec if I recall correctly according to the service manual. You're supposed to let the engine idle in Park, turn the HVAC to full cold with full fan, and read the temperature at one of the center vents as I recall. Depending on ambient temperature and humidity level, the spec is as low as the upper 40s (*F) and as high as the 60s I think. I'll have to check my service manual when I get home, unless someone posts it first. I haven't put a thermometer on mine yet. At full cold, it's too cold to keep the vents pointed at me. I'm running mine at 72*F, and it's real cold for about 5 minutes, then the fan and temperature seem to slacken off as the car cools down. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Fixed. They put another new compressor on it and it runs real cold now. He said "it wasn't putting out on the low side." Hmmm, a new compressor bad right out of the box, that does not bode well for Four Seasons. I was going to buy a new Four Seasons HT-6 (different mount) for my Chevy van, it was $ 275, versus a new Delphi for $ 320. They ordered the Delphi by accident and sold it to me for $ 280. It has worked great ever since. I did put the orifice tube in backwards (1st time A/C repair), then stuck another one in when I could not retrieve the first. It now cools fine, but makes a strange whistling noise now and then (maybe due to two orifice tubes back-to-back). Oh well, it keeps my kids amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 That's really why I wanted to have a repair shop do the work instead of me. If anything didn't work just right, it's on them to diagnose and repair. I know even good equipment can be bad sometimes, so I don't fault Four Seasons at all. Michelin tires, I love 'em and have 'em on both vehicles, but we got a bad one from Sears on our van when we bought four. So they had to replace one. It happens. I don't think my original compressor should have gone out so quickly either, so I guess I could say I wasn't impressed with Delphi's original unit. The A/C compressor was original and still working just fine on my '84 Cutlass when I sold it (it was a Harrison brand IIRC). So far, two OE accessories have been replaced on my Seville...the alternator and the compressor...the alternator well before 75k miles. But I'd have put another Delphi compressor on there had it had a comparable price and warranty. Edit: I just checked Autozone.com and they're selling new Delphi compressor/clutch assemblies for $288. When I was looking a month ago, they were closer to $400. I paid $300 for the new Four Seasons compressor. Those Delphi prices are really inconsistent, apparently. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 I wouldn't be disappointed in the original compressor - it lasted 9 years and 150,000 miles and that's before the case seals were redesigned. I do agree that the alternator life was short though. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Whatever broke in the compressor did it prior to when I got the car, at 82,000 miles, and about 5 years old. It's made the same noise since I've had it, but I finally got embarassed enough (and scared enough that it might do real damage) that I finally replaced it. And to be fair, since my original compressor was always noisy, it could've gone for another 100k miles that way, I don't know. That's why I replaced it. Because of the "I don't know." I figured it'd be better now than later, after internals of the compressor were chunked all through the system. There was only a small amount of debris in the old orifice that I felt pretty good about it. Maybe just one of the reed valves broke on the old one. This new compressor appears to use a different clutch design that perhaps makes it even quieter. The old compressor clutch had three "bars" that in shape formed a triangle...it was very similar in design, as I recall, to the Harrison compressor on my Cutlass. The new Four Seasons compressor shows only three circular "lugs" on the outside of the clutch, and they appear to be rubber-bushed, because I can depress them slightly with my finger nail. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Some of the newer design clutch plates have rubber bonded to the backside so when they engage, they aren't as noisy. Maybe that is the style on the new compressor on your car. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 Kevin, IIRC, you are the one who has mentioned "adjusting the gap" in the A/C clutch to prevent intermittent fallout of clutch engagement. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if I'm right . . . . could you point me in the direction of some info on this? I haven't been able to find any info on this in my FSM, and folk I talk to look sorta strange at me when I suggest it. It's really a moot point since I will be replacing the clutch shortly; it makes a "squealing" noise at 1750rpm. I'm just bigtime really curious about that "gap thing." Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Kevin, IIRC, you are the one who has mentioned "adjusting the gap" in the A/C clutch to prevent intermittent fallout of clutch engagement. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if I'm right . . . . could you point me in the direction of some info on this? I haven't been able to find any info on this in my FSM, and folk I talk to look sorta strange at me when I suggest it. It's really a moot point since I will be replacing the clutch shortly; it makes a "squealing" noise at 1750rpm. I'm just bigtime really curious about that "gap thing." Regards, Warren Warren, The clutch air gap is in the FSM in the compressor rebuilding section - I don't recall what the exact spec. is but it is inspected with feeler gages and adjusted by using the installer/remover tool until the proper gap is achieved. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted May 20, 2006 Report Share Posted May 20, 2006 Warren, The clutch air gap is in the FSM in the compressor rebuilding section - I don't recall what the exact spec. is but it is inspected with feeler gages and adjusted by using the installer/remover tool until the proper gap is achieved. Thanks Kevin. As long as I know it's in the FSM I'll keep looking until I find it. I probably gave up looking too soon. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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