Cadillac SLS vs. Lincoln LS

[JasonA]

Was minding my own business tonight when the stop light ahead turned red. I was in the left lane -- my left hand turn was about 1/2 mile after the light. This car approached fast behind and jumped into the right lane. I quickly slowed down to let it get ahead so I could see what it was. Looked like a Bimmer in the rear view but turned out to be an LS. It wasn't brand new...not sure what year it was. Also wasn't sure about the engine. It had dual exhaust, but I think even the V-6 models had that. I couldn't see over to the right side of the car to see if it had the V-8 logo. Oh well..pulled up to the light next to the older, straw hat wearing retiree (according to the license plate).

Light turns green and I hesitate a bit to see if he was gonna run. He did and then I did. The tires gave a squeak and I dug all the way into the throttle and pulled slowly on him. Half way into 2nd gear (which is about 60 mph; speed limit 55), I let off and applied the brakes for my turn. He continued to charge ahead and finally flew past.

My wife gave me a hard time for racing an old guy. I said I never pick the races, but I'll certainly join one if I know it'll be quick and easy.

[Dasher]

I had a similar experience which I posted on the old board a few weeks ago.

I stopped at a stop street and when I started forward, the car behind me came charging around me as if he were really doing something. It turned out to be one of you young whipper-snappers in a Lincoln LS.

As luck would have it, at the next stoplight, the rode widened into four lanes. I pulled up beside him and when the light changed, he jumped the light but I still passed him in short order. Never a good idea to challenge your elders! LOL

Dasher, Age 75

P. S. Tell wifey to relax. We old guys can take care of ourselves with the help of an STS.

[davedog]

my favorite ones are the punks in the hondas who see my caddy and automatically think "old people car"....I love seeing the look on their faces when my caddy "roars" past!

[Bob*97 SLS]

I went to look at an 03 LS in Goldstone, I think that was the color. It was a very nice car. Of course I'm hooked on Cadillac!

[Dyver]

You fine Caddy owners have to remember one thing. A car that is a full second slower in the 0-60, is going to beat you, when he is "all over it" and you only react! I have destroyed many a faster car, in my wifes STS, because I was "up to the task". Also remember that zero to sixty in the mid six second range, is not that fast. The true test of the Northstar is between 60 and 100. You have got to let the NS rev big time, and don't be afraid to let the rev limiter do it's job. There is a clear differnece between torque and horsepower. I am much more impresed with the NS at speed, than off the line. Any comments?

[TDK]

Try it in the rain against a rear wheel drive, that knows they got ya in power.

The traction control works great and its even more fun to watch them in the mirror go sideways in a panic.

Gotta get that torque to twist the road, not just snort air out the pipes...

[Cadillac STS]

You fine Caddy owners have to remember one thing. A car that is a full second slower in the 0-60, is going to beat you, when he is "all over it" and you only react! I have destroyed many a faster car, in my wifes STS, because I was "up to the task". Also remember that zero to sixty in the mid six second range, is not that fast. The true test of the Northstar is between 60 and 100. You have got to let the NS rev big time, and don't be afraid to let the rev limiter do it's job. There is a clear differnece between torque and horsepower. I am much more impresed with the NS at speed, than off the line. Any comments?

It may not be quick off the line on paper...

but you sure as hell feel the G-force!

how many of you N* owners who have the 300hp motor feel their backs get pressed against the set off the line?

i already know the STS is strong top end, but how hard do you think 0-60 in 5.8 is?

that is of course w/mods

[Marika]

No racing on a public highway, but..........

I'll meet you all at the track in Englishtown, New Jersey

[JasonA]

The true test of the Northstar is between 60 and 100. You have got to let the NS rev big time, and don't be afraid to let the rev limiter do it's job. There is a clear differnece between torque and horsepower. I am much more impresed with the NS at speed, than off the line. Any comments?

That's true, but there's no room to do that on a public road safely except out west somewhere or in a very deserted area. I don't live in such an area, nor do I feel like giving my local county mounty a few hundred bucks of my hard-earned money. I never pick a race I know will be close, because I know I'll be tempted to run him way over a safe speed, which is something I won't do. You're right -- whoever has the hole shot wins the race. If you're not sure, put it down into 1st to keep first gear longer. If he decides to run, you're in prime shape to take care of him. You're right, the Northstar isn't blazingly fast, but it's faster than most cars on the road, and the fun part -- faster than most everyone thinks it is. When the boy-racer in the Honda next to you starts revving his Japanese percolator, you can be off the line and have him taken care of and not even exceed the speed limit.

The Northstar is pretty good off the line...if you like the L37 (STS) version, I suggest you try the LD8 version (the one with the torque)! Compared to MOST cars today, the Northstar has the low-end punch to get the job done quickly. Most of your "competition" is coming from the redline runners in their 1.6L 4-cylinder engines. Compared to those, the Northstar makes about 3 times the torque...all just off idle.

0-60 in 5.8 seconds will take some work, but it's certainly doable. Do all you can to maxmize the engine's airflow. That would include a low-filtration filter, larger throttle body if you'd like, thoroughly re-worked exhaust, etc. The average STS does 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds, so to drop almost a full second off that, I would think you'd also need the help of some healthier camshafts. The supercharger project that XMS is working on certainly wouldn't help. But at this point, I would question the durability of the rest of the TFWD drivetrain. I understand the transmission is really designed for the 300 lb*ft of torque of the LD8 engine, and anything above that is starting to get too high. Also the CV joints. And you're also talking about only TWO wheel drive here. AWD would certainly help you get off the line. A straight drive transmission couldn't hurt either. You could go on forever...

[Flyer]

I would really love to know what mods can be done to make a caddy a 5.8 second 0-60 car. That sounds very optimistic to me....

[tjtjwdad]

Actually, I think out of the hole the Northstar is a little sluggish (STS) but once it is wound up... it goes.

Just the other night (on a low traffic freeway) I was passing this Mercedes. When I got about 6 car lengths in front of him he put his Hi-Beams on me and wouldn't take them off. After about 30-45 seconds I slowed ... so did he. Finally it took some evasive action on my part to get him back in front. He accelerated … so do did I. I gave him my Hi-beams right back for about 5 seconds and burned a little paint off his back end. My point was to let him know I’m not back here ridding around with my hi-beams on. Damned ball-bag! After that I went on around him and that was it. I guess he felt sheepish! Maybe HIDS have that effect so maybe I need to get the alignment checked or something.

Anyway, the car does shine at just about any point above 60 MPH. Gotta remember too that most of these cars weigh close to 2 tons. That is a lot of weight to get in motion.

Jim White

[MARK 99STS]

5.8 0-60 is certainly doable. According to my G-tech pro, I have many runs at 5.75, 5.8, 5.85 0-60 times. I'm not sure how accurate it is because I can't get 0-60 times at the track.

My best 1/4 mile time at the track is 14.1. My mods are as follows:

Corsa cat back open exhaust

K&N cone filter(completely heat shielded and ducted down for fresh air)

80mm TB

High stall torque converter

opened up y pipe in front of "cat" ( had a very bad restriction in it)

Anybody know how to determine 0-60 times from info on the time slip from the track?

[Flyer]

Mark,

I'm really digging the 14.1 1/4 mile time, I want some of that in my car!!

[JasonA]

Actually, I think out of the hole the Northstar is a little sluggish (STS) but once it is wound up... it goes.

My dream Northstar-powered Cadillac would be the LD8 engine (SLS) with the 3.71:1 final drive (STS). That way you get the power and torque in the midrange from the LD8 engine, and you get the extra torque multiplication of that shorter gear ratio. They never offered that combo from the factory until the '05 MY Bonneville GXP. I'd LOVE to drive one of those cars. I hear performance numbers are very impressive.

[JasonA]

Corsa cat back open exhaust

K&N cone filter(completely heat shielded and ducted down for fresh air)

80mm TB

High stall torque converter

opened up y pipe in front of "cat" ( had a very bad restriction in it)

I certianly believe you got 5.8 0-60 runs with that car. I think the higher stall converter and extra exhaust work made the difference there. Those are uncommon mods, but necessary to really achieve the car's potential.

[tjtjwdad]

Jason,

I second your guess ... 5.8-6.0 range. Like you it will be interesting to see the numbers on the 05 Bonneville. Compared to the two engines (Northstars) where does the torque curve drop off? That would seem to me to be the only draw back to the steeper gears. Great get up and go ... but runs out of air in a hurry. Of course for highway cruising another gear could be added.

Jim White

[JasonA]

Jim, here are the power and torque curves for the 1990s era Northstar engines. I don't think they changed much, if at all, in the 2000+ engines. The peak ratings stayed the same, at the same RPM, so I certainly think these graphs are good for comparison purposes, even for the current Northstar engines:

http://jadcock.oldsgmail.com/cadsls/northstar.html

Everywhere below about 5000 rpm, the LD8 (SLS) is making more horsepower and more torque than the L37 (STS). At 3000 rpm (the "meat" of an acceleration run), the LD8 is generating about 292 lb*ft of torque and the L37 about 277 (my guesses from the graph, plotted in AutoCAD). Factor in the final drive ratios (let's assume we're in the 1:1 3rd gear to make the math easier), and you've got 908 lbs. at the wheels in an LD8 package and 1027 lbs. at the wheels in an L37 package. Now, put the L37 final drive (3.71:1) behind BOTH engines, and you now have 1083 lbs. for the LD8 and 1027 lbs. (the same as before) for the L37.

The same goes for the "total" performance of the engines I think. Like I said earlier, I plotted the graphs in AutoCAD, and the total area under the curves were as follows (using arbitrary units):

LD8 hp: 535

LD8 tq: 396

L37 hp: 532

L37 tq: 385

I think when you factor in the final drive, you really see the effects of it on total vehicle performance:

LD8 hp*3.11: 1663

LD8 tq* 3.11: 1231

L37 hp*3.71: 1973

L37 tq*3.71: 1428

Obviously, the units are arbitrary and the raw numbers don't really mean anything, but I think they give a good comparison between the total package of both vehicles. Now, put the 3.71 final drive behind the LD8:

LD8 hp*3.71: 1984

LD8 tq*3.71: 1469

In short, I'd really like to drive a Bonneville GXP...with the LD8 engine with the 3.71 final drive. I think that makes a great package (if down on mileage a little) that would approach or exceed the total performance of the L37 combination. The estimated 0-60 numbers I've seen on the new GXP so far (in the very low 6s) seem to support that. I can't wait until a magazine does the first instrumented testing of one!