OynxSTS Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 Now I must admit that my '02 barely shook to begin with and I found that if I inflated the stock W rated RSA Goodyears to max pressure the shake would almost totally go away... But today I retired the shot RSAs for a set of Pilot Sports... Road Forced to 2lb (LF) 5lb (RF) 11lb (LR) and 15lb (RR)... Before the road force only one tire was over 25 which is where the machine flags the tire as "unacceptable" most were in the mid to low teens... Amazing ride zero vibration... amazing grip from the tires too... I've been told the wear life on these tires is the pits and I can report that they are ever so slightly noisier than the RSAs... But overall I'm pleased... While my wallet is still in shock... I would strongly recommend The Road Force process to any owner of a shaky Seville! PS like some others have posted... The chome on the inside of my rims was in really bad shape... Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 I suppose that I am the most vocal proponent of road force balancing on this board. I'm glad you are happy with the results and I'm also glad that you were able to talk your tire service "specialists" into ignoring the machine-set limits. Now, you say your wallet is in shock. Exactly how much did this work cost? I've managed to work with my tire shop to settle on a $39.95 total price including unmounting and remounting all 4 tires. If you can prove to them that this really worked for you, and suggest that a set price will bring them more business, they may work a deal with you too. Just came back from my usual, bi-weekly 250 mile trip to Pittsburgh. BOY these cars can sure ride nice once you get the tire issues worked out can't they? My wife even commented today "This has got to be the most comfortable car in the world" totally unprompted by me. And mine is a '99 STS w/70,500 miles! Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted February 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Road Forcing was "cheap" $60CAN $15CAN a corner... Would have been $10 if the tires were perfect... No, it was the Michelin Pilots that left the big gaping whole in my wallet. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 I suppose that I am the most vocal proponent of road force balancing on this board. I'm glad you are happy with the results and I'm also glad that you were able to talk your tire service "specialists" into ignoring the machine-set limits. That's problably why mine still has a very minor vibration. I didn't know you could "tweak it". I even asked if he could get it any lower and was told no. I think I still have one tire over 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Onyxsts (and others), Has anyone figured out how to fix (aside for re-plating) the chrome peeling inside (if that's what you are referring to)? The BRD has a slow leak on one foot due to chrome peeling on the inside of the rim. I tried some of the squirt in stuff and had it drained out after it was worse at 80's plus. Was the force balance machine a Hunter 9700 or are there others out there? Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Ranger, you might want to go back to your tire dealer to discuss this with them. You may need to negotiate a little because they are VERY convinced that the "machine knows best". All you need to do is have them agree on a price for mounting and remounting every tire to get the lowest reading possible. I have generally set the limit on road force at 15 pounds, which you can feel slightly under SOME circumstances. Above that I reject the tire, especially if they are a new purchase from that shop. If you want to get REALLY technical, make sure your tires are warm and not flat spotted from sitting overnight before you have the work done. This last detail is not an issue when pulling new tires down off the rack and mounting them for the first time. I thought we talked about all this when you first found Ruby, before you even bought her. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted February 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Onyxsts (and others), Has anyone figured out how to fix (aside for re-plating) the chrome peeling inside (if that's what you are referring to)? The BRD has a slow leak on one foot due to chrome peeling on the inside of the rim. I tried some of the squirt in stuff and had it drained out after it was worse at 80's plus. Was the force balance machine a Hunter 9700 or are there others out there? 1) According to my tire/wheel guy... there is no permanent fix... Chrome on Aluminum will eventually peal. and leak... He did smear a whole lot of sticky grey goop on the rim after he wire brushed them down to the aluminum... But he made it very clear this was a temporary fix and that the wheels will probably leak again before the tires wear out... Stripping and re-chroming is a more permanent fix but don't expect this to last more than 5 or 6 years... BTW he says all chrome on Aluminum wheels do this... 2) You can't fix it from the "outside" you need to remove the tire... remove the bubbling chrome and wire brush any remaining "loose" chrome away... 3) Yes was balanced on a hunter 9700... Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Ranger, you might want to go back to your tire dealer to discuss this with them. You may need to negotiate a little because they are VERY convinced that the "machine knows best". All you need to do is have them agree on a price for mounting and remounting every tire to get the lowest reading possible. I have generally set the limit on road force at 15 pounds, which you can feel slightly under SOME circumstances. Above that I reject the tire, especially if they are a new purchase from that shop. If you want to get REALLY technical, make sure your tires are warm and not flat spotted from sitting overnight before you have the work done. This last detail is not an issue when pulling new tires down off the rack and mounting them for the first time. I thought we talked about all this when you first found Ruby, before you even bought her. Johhny, One of the problems I have as you may recall, is that the tires are not new and have been run underinflated so they are a bit feathered. They claim that because of this, they cannot get them any better than what they are. As I said, the remaining vibration is very minor and I can live with it (I'll have to I guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickster Posted February 5, 2006 Report Share Posted February 5, 2006 Glad to hear the news on the new shoes. Had a few (too many) with Rob and his wife last night and he mentioned you got some new pilots. These cars sure ride sweet when the wheels are balanced right. Rick 2001 STS Mettalic Otter Grey, Black Leather, 213,000 kilometers - miles - ? Still running strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted February 6, 2006 Report Share Posted February 6, 2006 interesting subject that has come up frequently through the years on this board and many others. it is especially relevant with fwd cars. i have seen only one other post regarding the procedure that i will describe shortly: while the road force system of balancing is a huge improvement over the standard wheel balancing it is far from the ultimate test. the biggest advantage to the r/f procedure is the ability to minimize the imbalance between the tire and rim, but it does not check any other part of the drivetrain, either front or rear...there are hubs, axles and brake components that are not being checked with the r/f procedure the fullest test one can do to check out the entire sytem is a strobe-light balance. the tire/rim stays on the vehicle, the corner is elevated and a driven drum is put up against the tire tread...the drum is spun up to speed and the strobe is applied; any imbalance in the entire driveline will be readily apparent. the downside is you don't know where the problem exists. with the poster i mentioned it turned out to be in his hub assembly, the wheel studs were not perpendicular to the face of the hub. one sure way to start the trouble shooting steps to figure out what is out of balance would be to start with the r/force and then have the strobe test done. this way you know the tires/rims are dialed in. jackg 90seville 100k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 justgreat, you are confusing "tire/wheel balance" with "road force balance". The two are similar, but have two completely different purposes. True, if all of the vibrations we felt as drivers of any car was due enrtirely to WEIGHT balance, you would be absolutely correct. But the shaking that road force addresses is, well ROAD FORCE. The force at which the tire strikes the road and the varying resistance of the tire to absorb that force. A tire actually is not equally flexible at every point in its circumference, whether it be due to the way the belt is laid in to the mold, the rubber compound variations, or high or low spots of the tire. It is also a fact that rims have AXIAL RUNOUT, or high and low spots due to manufactuing tolerances, or dents. What a road force balancer attempt to do is match the stiff spots of the tire, with the low spots of the rim, therby creating an assembly the strikes the pavement with equal force as it roll down the road. This was not always an issue, and is still not in some vehicle designs, but in these cars and many others with reduced unsprung weight, it becomes a problem. Ranger, I forgot about the old tires. You are right that it is probably not worth the time, money, and effort to get the old tires perfect, so you may as well live with it for a while. However, I disagree that feathering, by itself will cause a tire to be off that far on road force. But what I would like to suggest is that when you do decide to get new tires, take your car to a Cadillac dealer to get the alignment done BEFORE you get the new tires. Let him tell you whether or not to get them replaced prior to alignment. Tire wear patterns will tell a story and will enable the technician to accurately align your car when he finally does the work. This is one of the VERY few times I will recommend going to a dealership for service. I had the dealership align my STS when I found loose tie rod locknuts on both ends. Well at least you know why I won't let them do a steering rack replacement. Anyway, that was two or three years and about 40,000 miles ago and my tires are wearing PERFECTLY, first car that has ever happened with. I think this guy knew his stuff! Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Ranger, I forgot about the old tires. You are right that it is probably not worth the time, money, and effort to get the old tires perfect, so you may as well live with it for a while. However, I disagree that feathering, by itself will cause a tire to be off that far on road force. I tend to agree and thought that was a crock to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 roadforce is a system that was developed to better accomodate the consumer due to numerous complaints regarding vibrations and shimmy. the roadforce process is labor intensive, more so than the standard wheel balancing. it attempts to better "match" the tire to the rim through the use of the process and the extra labor of moving the tire on and off the rim...something that most tire shops are not want to do: i.e. get em in and get em out. roadforce is definitely better than the standard wheel balance but it's only part of the equation. see the thread started by logan and you'll see what i mean. when the engineers/designers went away from the simple strut suspension setup and got into more complex suspension systems that's when the complaints started; especially on fw drivetrains...there's alot of stuff going on through those front tires. jackg 90seville 100k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 the roadforce process is labor intensive, more so than the standard wheel balancing. it attempts to better "match" the tire to the rim through the use of the process and the extra labor of moving the tire on and off the rim...something that most tire shops are not want to do: i.e. get em in and get em out. True, but I watched the whole process on my car and the extra effort was really minimal... Maybe an extra 2 minutes a wheel... Couldn't have taken an extra 10 minutes for the whole car... I think the real reason is it take 2 very large and expensive looking machines to do this... One is the Hunter 9700 that does the balance and the road force... The second, also from Hunter, is equally impressive... It grabs the wheel, from the inside with four large "paws", breaks the bead and holds the tire in place while it turns the wheel to the marks that the operator identified on the 9700 machine... The guy that did mine knew what he was doing and he could do a wheel faster then I could type this. I would bet that most people won't pay more than $10 bucks a corner for balancing/installation and that it takes a very long time for these machines to pay for themselves. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 The second, also from Hunter, is equally impressive... It grabs the wheel, from the inside with four large "paws", breaks the bead and holds the tire in place while it turns the wheel to the marks that the operator identified on the 9700 machine... The guy that did mine knew what he was doing and he could do a wheel faster then I could type this. WHOA! I have never seen this machine! It's a little beyond our means here in Almost West-By-GOD! I bet that's something to see..... HEY, what happened to the QUOTE feature?" It was my favorite. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justgreat Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 the roadforce process is labor intensive, more so than the standard wheel balancing. it attempts to better "match" the tire to the rim through the use of the process and the extra labor of moving the tire on and off the rim...something that most tire shops are not want to do: i.e. get em in and get em out. True, but I watched the whole process on my car and the extra effort was really minimal... Maybe an extra 2 minutes a wheel... Couldn't have taken an extra 10 minutes for the whole car... I think the real reason is it take 2 very large and expensive looking machines to do this... One is the Hunter 9700 that does the balance and the road force... The second, also from Hunter, is equally impressive... It grabs the wheel, from the inside with four large "paws", breaks the bead and holds the tire in place while it turns the wheel to the marks that the operator identified on the 9700 machine... The guy that did mine knew what he was doing and he could do a wheel faster then I could type this. I would bet that most people won't pay more than $10 bucks a corner for balancing/installation and that it takes a very long time for these machines to pay for themselves. okay: that's makes sense. the machine does most of the work. expensive to purchase but something that would be attractive to the store owner since as you pointed out, it wouldn't slow the process down too much. it will be interesting to see how much more the r/f procedure costs versus a standard whl balance. jackg seville 100k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted February 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 The cost of Road Force varies DRAMATICALLY shop to shop and region to region... I would bet mostly based on the age of the machine and/or the number of the machines in the region. IMO a fair price for the service is about $20US a corner but I've heard of less and I heard of more too... Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99 STS MAN Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I just wanted to tell you, if you don't know anything about a post, And you want to make someone feel stupid, jest read and keep your mouth shut!!!!!!!!!! Buy a set of new wheels you tight a**!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I just wanted to tell you, if you don't know anything about a post, And you want to make someone feel stupid, jest read and keep your mouth shut!!!!!!!!!! Buy a set of new wheels you tight a**!! Since you appear to be new here (only 27 posts) I thought I would stop by and say hi. I don't know who you were speaking to in this post but its TOTALLY uncalled for. We DO NOT act this way on this board. If you are reacting to OynxSTS's statement about your post here, he was right typing in ALL caps is not proper. http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8539&hl= This type of language is also not proper on this board that you used here again in CAPS: EXCUSE ME WHILE I JA** OFF !! THAT WAS THE SH**!! MAN KICK A** JOB!!! http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8399&st=30 Welcome aboard but please try to do a little looking around to see what is it is to be a good member before you taint yourself to the membership and no one makes any effort to help you at all. Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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