Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Well I spoke too soon. Drove about 30 miles and one block from home I got a 1315 code again... 1315 is a shorted Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor. Now here is the ODD thing, when I took the old sensor out this morning, the two wires that connect to the thermister were twisted nice and neatly about 4 or 5 turns... The AC guys thought that was odd, and it was obviously what was causing my shorting problem. 1315 is a shorted sensor.... I am losing my mind... If this one is twisted what could cause a sensor to short out by its leads twisting? I am lost now... By the way, the old sensor went bad BEFORE the new compressor ran at all, I got the code as soon as it was charged and it stopped the compressor from running It felt great however while it lasted... Any ideas? Debris in the system? That sensor sits right in the middle of the refrigerant flow. Plus its behind the orifice tube. I have an urge to look at the orifice tube when then depressurize this system to install the sensor. How could debris have twisted those leads so perfect.. And I thought this thread was over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi Scotty hang in there You will figure it out. I don't know how the leads twisted but get out your MultiMeter and wiggle the connector check the wires could have rubbed(chaffing) and shorted Some time all it takes is a little moisture in their to short & heat can cause the resistance to change You are working with FM..= F'ing Magic It's *smurf* without the rite equip. if you had a megger you cauld read the wires but a multimeter will do.Hopefully you don't have to cut the wires and redo the connector or replace the connector a lot of times corrosion sets in and is hard to find.. Good Luck Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 I was sitting back having a beer pondering why these two sensors . . . . Mike, That's exactly what you need to do . . . . Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Mike, Just twisting the leads together shouldn't cause a short there unless the insulation is compromised somehow. Granted, they probably shouldn't be twisted----. First, I would unplug the sensor and see if the code goes away. If it does, or changes to a code for an open circuit, then the sensor is bad. Probably sitting un-pressurised had an effect on your sensors. Off to work now, will check back in the PM. Good Luck, Britt PS, come to think of it, I believe that the leads on a couple of my sensors are twisted. Possibly to act as strain relief?? Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Britt, this sensor is new. Something caused it to fail in 25 to 30 miles. I originally replaced it because I got the same code 1315. I am thinking that I will buy a new sensor, go to my AC place, depressurize the system, pull the orifice tube to see if I collected any debris and inspect the sensor and see what it looks like. I have been searching the internet to find a cause of this Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor failure and plan to speak to the service manager from caddy. If the new Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor that I installed is damaged, twisted or coated in black, I will inspect the orifice tube and if there is any debris, I will have the system professionally flushed... The one thing I did notice was that, I don't recall the compressor cycling on and off as it does, but I don't know what would cause that not to happen.. but maybe I didn't notice The saga continues.... I was almost there According to this article my compressor suffered a Black Death http://www.ackits.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=black%20death Here is my old orifice tube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 You know, I am looking at the above photo and I am thinking that I may have installed the orifice tube backwards.... What would that cause? The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube, I THINK that I stuck that end in first... This link also spoke about the orifice tube being installed backwards, did I screw up here? Could jumping the low pressure switch have caused this, sensor failure? If the orifice tube is ok with no debris, can I just reverse it? I am learning the hard way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Here is that link regarding installing the orifice tube backwards http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/archi...dex.php/t-15693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 You know, I am looking at the above photo and I am thinking that I may have installed the orifice tube backwards.... What would that cause? The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube, I THINK that I stuck that end in first... This link also spoke about the orifice tube being installed backwards, did I screw up here? Could jumping the low pressure switch have caused this, sensor failure? If the orifice tube is ok with no debris, can I just reverse it? I am learning the hard way... If the orifice tube was installed backward, that will damage the pressure sensor. The long end of the orifice tube goes toward the condenser and the short end toward the evaporator. I would inspect the orifice tube for famage if it interfered with the sensor. Should be an easy fix but will require recovery and charging of the system again. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Thanks Kevin, you are the man! I will take care of it this morning... Thanks again, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Was the o-tube installed backward? Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 You know, I am looking at the above photo and I am thinking that I may have installed the orifice tube backwards.... What would that cause? The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube, I THINK that I stuck that end in first... This link also spoke about the orifice tube being installed backwards, did I screw up here? Could jumping the low pressure switch have caused this, sensor failure? If the orifice tube is ok with no debris, can I just reverse it? I am learning the hard way... If the orifice tube was installed backward, that will damage the pressure sensor. The long end of the orifice tube goes toward the condenser and the short end toward the evaporator. I would inspect the orifice tube for famage if it interfered with the sensor. Should be an easy fix but will require recovery and charging of the system again. 'Long end/short end',...'The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube',....not sure what both of you are saying. I have never worked on a Caddy A/C (but orifice tubes are all pretty much the same in design), from my experience, the end you are holding is the end that goes into the evaporator line, that is, it is facing the evaporator. The copper tube should be pointed out, facing the condensor line. The tab on the left side the pic (in front of the orifice tube is what you use to insert/pull it out. Based on all the 'crud' on the outside of the filter side, my guess was this orifice tube was installed backwards, although I am surprized you could do that as the evaporator line is usually slightly embossed for the seal, and only allows to be inserted so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Also, I have not taken the time to read 9 pages of posts, but based on the orifice tube 'crud', you have some serious flushing to do...(are those compressor particulates on the filter,...ouchhh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Scotty I feel bad for ya. I know you will get it soon. Look what I found out with my car, nothing good comes easy. Last night I asked a question about the low pressure sender. It was said that many times that goes bad alone and replacing it might get the compressor to run again. I mkentioned that on my Moms Eldoradr she has the code for low freon pressor and on the dash it says compressor off. I thought it may be worth a shot putting out the 22 bucks for Mom and trying a new sensor. My question is" can I jump the two wires together to see if the compressor will run"? I also thought if the compressor is low and I force it to run I will do harm to it. If the system gets cold right away that would mean there is freon in it and I should just replace the sensor. Am I off base here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Scotty I feel bad for ya. I know you will get it soon. Look what I found out with my car, nothing good comes easy. Last night I asked a question about the low pressure sender. It was said that many times that goes bad alone and replacing it might get the compressor to run again. I mkentioned that on my Moms Eldoradr she has the code for low freon pressor and on the dash it says compressor off. I thought it may be worth a shot putting out the 22 bucks for Mom and trying a new sensor. My question is" can I jump the two wires together to see if the compressor will run"? I also thought if the compressor is low and I force it to run I will do harm to it. If the system gets cold right away that would mean there is freon in it and I should just replace the sensor. Am I off base here? That is what I have done in the past, jump the low pressure sensor with a paper clip to force feed the 2nd can of freon. The first can I put in with the car off, when I have totally evacuated the system. In your case, if you are just adding freon and the compressor won't run, it will only probably take one can to satisfy the low side. Remove the paper clip and see if it will cycle after the first can. if your are concerned about it not being low, put a pressure gauge on the low side, in 90 degree weather you are looking at 40-50 psi. I would not worry about forcing the compressor on, as long as it is not run for a long time in a low pressure (freon) state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 OK, that is something to try. I understand what to do and I will try it this weekend.Thanks very much for the info... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 You know, I am looking at the above photo and I am thinking that I may have installed the orifice tube backwards.... What would that cause? The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube, I THINK that I stuck that end in first... This link also spoke about the orifice tube being installed backwards, did I screw up here? Could jumping the low pressure switch have caused this, sensor failure? If the orifice tube is ok with no debris, can I just reverse it? I am learning the hard way... If the orifice tube was installed backward, that will damage the pressure sensor. The long end of the orifice tube goes toward the condenser and the short end toward the evaporator. I would inspect the orifice tube for famage if it interfered with the sensor. Should be an easy fix but will require recovery and charging of the system again. 'Long end/short end',...'The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube',....not sure what both of you are saying. I have never worked on a Caddy A/C (but orifice tubes are all pretty much the same in design), from my experience, the end you are holding is the end that goes into the evaporator line, that is, it is facing the evaporator. The copper tube should be pointed out, facing the condensor line. The tab on the left side the pic (in front of the orifice tube is what you use to insert/pull it out. Based on all the 'crud' on the outside of the filter side, my guess was this orifice tube was installed backwards, although I am surprized you could do that as the evaporator line is usually slightly embossed for the seal, and only allows to be inserted so far. Willie, the picture of the orifice tube is the original one with the failed compressor. The Northstar Cadillacs have the o-tube oriented with the long end toward the condensor and the short end toward the evap. If it is installed the other way, it will interfere with/damage one of the sensors. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Willie, the picture of the orifice tube is the original one with the failed compressor. The Northstar Cadillacs have the o-tube oriented with the long end toward the condensor and the short end toward the evap. If it is installed the other way, it will interfere with/damage one of the sensors. This is the site I used when I fixed my GM Van several months ago. orifice tube My AC has worked fine ever since. However, in retrospect, I am not sure if it would make a significant difference installed the other way, as it is nothing more than a 'throttling" tube in an in-line filter. Of course, it may be different with a the Caddy evaporator, there is a sensor in the evaporator inlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Of course, it may be different with a the Caddy evaporator, there is a sensor in the evaporator inlet? Yes - On the Northstar Cadillacs, if the o-tube is installed backward, damage to the sensor will result as the o-tube will interfere with the sensor. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Scotty/KHE, I just spoke to a fellow employee that works on automotive A/C on the side and he stated the plastic blade in front of the orifice tube should have a small arrow embossed on it, showing direction of flow. He agrees with KHE that the long end should be inserted into the evaporator as best has he recollects. He stated the very small prongs at the end of the orifice tube (near the tips of the needle nose pliers in the pic) are 'captured' when you use a special tool for extracting the device. He also agrees that other than interference issues, it should not make a difference in performance. When I replaced mine, I did it per the picture in the link I posted above, which also agreed with how the original one was installed at the factory. I guess it can vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Scotty/KHE, I just spoke to a fellow employee that works on automotive A/C on the side and he stated the plastic blade in front of the orifice tube should have a small arrow embossed on it, showing direction of flow. He agrees with KHE that the long end should be inserted into the evaporator as best has he recollects. He stated the very small prongs at the end of the orifice tube (near the tips of the needle nose pliers in the pic) are 'captured' when you use a special tool for extracting the device. He also agrees that other than interference issues, it should not make a difference in performance. When I replaced mine, I did it per the picture in the link I posted above, which also agreed with how the original one was installed at the factory. I guess it can vary. KHE said the long end goes toward the CONDENSER - just the opposite of most cars. If you reverse the orientation, the sensor will be damaged as it will interfere with the o-tube. I think that was the root cause of the premature sensor failure in Scotty's car. If you look at the picture of Scotty's original o-tube, all the trash from the failed compressor is on the long end which is the condenser end. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Scotty/KHE, I just spoke to a fellow employee that works on automotive A/C on the side and he stated the plastic blade in front of the orifice tube should have a small arrow embossed on it, showing direction of flow. He agrees with KHE that the long end should be inserted into the evaporator as best has he recollects. He stated the very small prongs at the end of the orifice tube (near the tips of the needle nose pliers in the pic) are 'captured' when you use a special tool for extracting the device. He also agrees that other than interference issues, it should not make a difference in performance. When I replaced mine, I did it per the picture in the link I posted above, which also agreed with how the original one was installed at the factory. I guess it can vary. KHE said the long end goes toward the CONDENSER - just the opposite of most cars. If you reverse the orientation, the sensor will be damaged as it will interfere with the o-tube. I think that was the root cause of the premature sensor failure in Scotty's car. If you look at the picture of Scotty's original o-tube, all the trash from the failed compressor is on the long end which is the condenser end. Oops, my bad, I meant to say my fellow employee agreed the long end should be pointed toward the CONDENSOR, as KHE states. KHE, thanks for the correction, I getting off this post as I am confusing myself now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi KHE is correct here's good pic and don't forget to lube the o'rings on the orafice with refridgerant 525 arrow points towards front of car Good Luck Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 OK here is the result of my day.... I had the orifice tube facing in the wrong direction, I had the long end facing inward toward the evaporator, WRONG! As a result, it was sucked in and physically interfered with the Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor damaging it (two of them to be exact)... There was NO debris in the system caught by the new orifice tube that was in wrong, so I am thrilled that I flushed the BLACK DEATH from the system well enough... I am also glad I installed a new condenser! I had the system depressurized and recaptured the 134A, removed and replaced the orifice tube, installed the new Evaporator Inlet Temp Sensor and installed a new Low Pressure Switch. Evacuated it for 45 minutes (held full pressure the entire time) and re-filled with 2 pounds of 134A and it works PERFECT! I was in traffic and the coolant temp was beautiful between 208 and 222, she seems to run cooler now with the AC fixed which is obviously due to the cooling fans running with the AC on.... Thanks for all of your help.... This was certainly a learning experience! Its cooling beautifully! Mike Now on to replacing all the hoses and thermostat in the cooling system! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 You know, I am looking at the above photo and I am thinking that I may have installed the orifice tube backwards.... What would that cause? The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube, I THINK that I stuck that end in first... This link also spoke about the orifice tube being installed backwards, did I screw up here? Could jumping the low pressure switch have caused this, sensor failure? If the orifice tube is ok with no debris, can I just reverse it? I am learning the hard way... If the orifice tube was installed backward, that will damage the pressure sensor. The long end of the orifice tube goes toward the condenser and the short end toward the evaporator. I would inspect the orifice tube for famage if it interfered with the sensor. Should be an easy fix but will require recovery and charging of the system again. 'Long end/short end',...'The end that I am holding in the photo was the end that was facing out in the tube',....not sure what both of you are saying. I have never worked on a Caddy A/C (but orifice tubes are all pretty much the same in design), from my experience, the end you are holding is the end that goes into the evaporator line, that is, it is facing the evaporator. The copper tube should be pointed out, facing the condensor line. The tab on the left side the pic (in front of the orifice tube is what you use to insert/pull it out. Based on all the 'crud' on the outside of the filter side, my guess was this orifice tube was installed backwards, although I am surprized you could do that as the evaporator line is usually slightly embossed for the seal, and only allows to be inserted so far. THe O-TUBE with the CRUD was the OLD O-TUBE from when my compressor self-destructed itself and there was NO oil in the system. I think this was a BLACK DEATH... But the LONG END goes toward the condenser... And you are right, I flushed the crap out of it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi Scotty Hey sh-- happens but all in all you did good. You need to get a set of gm manuals CHeers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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