Marika Posted July 11, 2004 Report Share Posted July 11, 2004 By the way, is there a published list of codes in the archives, or online somewhere? Thanks again, Tim http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/dtcobd2.html For cars built before 1996, use this link instead: http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/dtcobd1.html If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Sorry, didn't read close enough to realize you are OBDI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 OBDI ? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Sorry, brain dead. That's OBD1 vs OBD2. Got it now. Where physically is the ignition module? I would like to try and swap it out with a salvage part, and or "freeze" it as Marika suggested, to see if that's where the problem lies. Also, what about the coil pack, should I look in that direction, as well? Are the fuel pump and filter on the tank, or buried in the engine compartment? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 Are these available as performance parts, and are they worth the cost? Looking to (make the car run) upgrade performance a bit, so if I'm gonna change parts, I might as well do it right. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Update: This morning, drove the car to work (about 65 miles), and as usual, the problem didn't start until after I drove for close to an hour. Stopped for gas, and when I loosened the gas cap, the vaccuum relief was a good 3 seconds long. Seems like an abnormally large vaccuum buildup. Filled up, got back in the car, and it ran like a top. Could it be as simple as too much vaccuum building in the tank because of a bad gas cap? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Fuel starvation? Maybe. Might be something as simple as replacing the gas cap. You MAY have multiple problems with the car but wait for me to fax all those pages from the manual to you today. Then work from there. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Thanks again, Marika. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Sounds like too much vacuum. Along with the gas cap check the EVAP system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Evap system? Remember me? Gearhead - Ford - Holley - Edelbrock? - Evap system????? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I forget the exact acronym but it is Evaporative control System or something like that. It prevents gas fumes from evaporating into the atmosphere when shut dow. and purges them into the intake when the engine is running to burn them. There are hoses runningto a charcol canister and a solenoid and valve I believe. You need a manual to identify all the components, functions and routing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 OK, I faxed down 42 pages of stuff from the service manual including the section on component location as well as all the information regarding his codes and other information about the ignition system. Hopefully, it will help. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Thanks again for that, Marika. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Thanks again for that, Marika. Tim My pleasure. I usually just scan sections of the service manual and post them to my website but 42 pages was a bit much which is why I'm glad you had a fax number available to you, made my life a lot easier. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Just a quick update. Vacuum wasn't the problem. On the way home, after abput 40 miles, problem started again. Let the vacuum out of the tank, same deal. Shut the car off for a couple of minutes, and 80% of the problem disappeared, but again, slowly got progressively worse. C'mon....Guru, Logan. Need some help here. This is a stumper. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Change the gas cap. Sounds like it it not venting properly. The pump is sucking fuel out of the tank. If that fuel is not replaced by air then a vacuum is created. At some point that will overcome the pumps ability to pump fuel or the tank will collapse. Sounds like you've already proven that by relieving vacuum and it runs fine for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92 deville-loveit Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 The gas cap problem is easy to check out ... put the gas cap in the trunk for a day or three or until the problem with overheating reappears. Personally I think it is the ignition module in the distributor if the problem is truely heat related. I just encounterd this very problem last week in my very overloaded 92 Deville. I was coming back from Indianapolis with an air comressor and a lathe in the trunk plus all the tools that I used to R&R the heads when the head gasket(s) failed in Coffee Springs, AL and I also had all the souvenirs and accumulated items from my almost 3 month long trip. All was going fine until I picked up a cyclist trying to get to Las Vegas when I was at the Texas - New Mexico border town of Glenrio there at the rest area. I had passed him an hour earlier and saw that he was traveling very light ... so light that he didn't have any food. I gave him 3 cans of food and told him if he was there when I finished my nap I would give him a ride. I was having leg problems so I slept on a slope with my head down. When I awoke he and his bike were parked in fornt of my Caddy. I strapped his bike to the back of my caddy and cleared room for him in the passenger seat. 40 miles later climbing a long grade I lost power. Scanning the PCM data I noticed I only had 10-12 degrees advance. Bad news! I didn't know what was wrong but popping the hood revealed lots of heat. Yet the coolant temp was only 92C so the cooling system was working fine/perfect. I limped down the road a couple of miles and then off an exit and parked uder a very welcome Chevron Gas Pump canopy. Outsied air temp was between 85-95 and sure to get hotter. The shade was very welcome. Deliberately wasting lots of time to let things cool - fortunately business was very slow at Chevron that day - I restarted the engine ... zero power. I had no unusual codes just my typical/usual E22 and E70 which I cleared. Finally it occurred to me to disconnect the battery and I hooked it back up and power was restored. I played this game several more times but without the limp off the freeway bit. About the 3rd or 4th time I noted that the Underhood air temp was higher than the coolant temp ... most unusual. I started monitoring the underhood temp rather than the ignition advance and I was able to see that most often the temp went up with VCC engagement ... usually but not always. I found that by climbing hills in 3rd and going down in OD that I could control under hood temps even when I was in the area of the Coloradao River where the outside temp was 111F west of Kingman, AZ. I dropped my rider off at KIngman and my overheating problems were greatly reduced even though I climbed higher and had even steeper grades. Only twice in the last 300 miles did I have problems and both times I was in Heavy bumper to bumper traffic and my concern was not under the hood but the crazy drivers around me swapping lanes at every opportunity to gain a car length's advantage. I was back home in the land of road rage madness. It started in Barstow and continued till I deliberately got off the freeway in the San Bernadino/ Loma Linda area of I-215. I wasted 2 hours in the Walmart shopping center there letting the rush hour traffic diminish and then I drove home the last 30 minutes. After emptying the car I have not had any addtional problems even when I was in Anaheim rush hour traffic last Friday night after buying computer parts for a customer's new computer I sold. By the way I laminated 4 pages of the service manual and keep them in the pocket of my passenger seat so I can reach them while driving and do real time diagnostics. I can do the same for anyone with a 92 or 93 Deville (same service manual does both years as the cars are identical mechanically) My charge is $7 mailed to you. Walmart does money orders for $0.46. Allow one week for me to go to Kinko's or similar for the lamination. My laminated pages allowed me to keep my manual stored in the trunk. I am looking for the perfect box to store the manual and I am welcome to suggestions. I have a tupperware that is almost deep enough ... but not quite. I have given thought to making a wooden box with a sliding lid of 1/8 inch - 3/16th plyood. The manuals are very expensive new. Mine new 10 years ago was $100. I want to keep it protected and like new. As for the codes this party first had ... I had those too ... but I had no rough running. I think that is a different issue. These original codes were caused by either the TPS or the ICS motor/ closed throtte switch assembly. While I had my engine torn apart back in Coffee springs I cleaned the throttle bore with carb cleaner and the TPS was never removed or adjusted in anyway. (I had no stored codes and didn't have any code problems ... only overheating.) But putting the engien back together, I soon had lots of TPS codes and now (hind sight) I think that the carb cleaner loosened up residue from the wiper arm and messed things up inside. I was going to get a new TPS $50 from GM and even more expensive from AutoZOne ... but it seemed to be getting better and now it works perfect again. Alas the ICS was not working perfect and would randomly or so it seemed engage and goose the throttle even though the air was off and the power steering was guiding straight ahead wheels. I removed the ICS motor from the engine and that problem was solved. Now that my TPS is normal or near normal (I get readings from 1.7 to -8.8 degrees at closed throttle) and my TPS voltage has settled down to an almost perfect 0.502V at closed throttle ... It was about 2 volts when I started from Coffee Springs to Connecticut.) I had it adjusted at the extreme setting but after 500 miles of codes and headaches I decided to back it off a bit and now 2000 miles later that second setting seems perfect. My rationale for backing it off was maybe there was a "worn" spot uder the wiper there and it would never get better. Move it a bit and maybe the new range of movement would have only a good area under the wiper arm. (Early computer mice and joysticks were like pots (same as the TPS) but engineers got smart and went to slotted wheels and digital info so that there was nothing to wear out.) My 92 deville had about 111,000 when I started this last trip and now has exactly 120332 miles. I bought and repaired a wrecked STS while on this trip and was very disapponted to find out that a Caddy could not tow a Caddy or much of anything else. I have a 22 foot sailboat and I was going to get a hitch for the car ... Now I don't know. THis is a revolting development. Two caddys with horsepower and torque to spare and they can't tow over 1000 pounds. SUCKS!!! Bob McKnight 29856 Avenida de Fiesta Sun City, Calif 92586-6508 (909) 301-8519 By the way ... built in Diagnostics do not tell all. I got a Snap-on MT-2500 scanner and as soon as I hooked it up it revealed a hidden EGR problem ( for FOrd guys that is Exhaust Gas Recirulation) (-; Sure enough I check the lines and one was filled with the epoxy I had used to glue the broken hardened rubber end back together. $5 twice at the Caddy dealer in Norwalk, Connecticut bought both EGR vacuum lines going to and from the EGR solenoid. These were the only ones that broke when I took them off the engine during the head job. One last comment ... overheating on the 4.9L ... I fought this problem for over 100k miles in the last 3 years that I owned this car. Actually I got the car becasue the first owner got tired fo fighting the over heating problem that developed after he had the engine "power Flushed". 4 water pumps, a radiator , cap, and thermostat and still yet a clogged heater core and the problem will be solved but I almost missed the cause when I replaced the failed head gaskets ... the coolant passages arond the cylinder sleeves expecially in the rear bank were almost filled with hard as a rock debris and sediment. When clear there should be 3.5 inches of clear space all the way around each cylinder. On the rear side of my rar bank that was reduced to 1.5 inches. I broke two hacksaw blades and a steak knife chipping it out. A very thin Ice pick would have been invaluable but I didn't have one when I started that task. It took me 8 hours balanced on my knees chipping away that junk. Now my engine runs very cool. I think the sediment resulted from an excessive amount of GM Cooling tabs. They kept being added but thre is no way I know to remove them except replace the radiator, heater core and chip out the block. UGH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Not having an overheating problem, just a $hitty running problem when it heats up. Is it advisable to replicate the problem, and then "freeze" the ignition module with some freon to see if that solves it? And if not, same with the coil pack ? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marika Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Not having an overheating problem, just a $hitty running problem when it heats up. Is it advisable to replicate the problem, and then "freeze" the ignition module with some freon to see if that solves it? And if not, same with the coil pack ? Tim Yeah, you can try that but you won't be able to use Freon, you'll have to use that other stuff that's out there now, the so-called "ozone friendly" refrigerant. (forgot which one it is now). Just be very careful when you use that stuff, don't get it in your eyes, WEAR EYE PROTECTION, and don't inhale it either. If you really want to make people safe drivers again then simply remove all the safety features from cars. No more seat belts, ABS brakes, traction control, air bags or stability control. No more anything. You'll see how quickly people will slow down and once again learn to drive like "normal" humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 OK. thanks to blackcaddy, I cleared the codes, then set off on a 60 mile trip, checking the codes every 10 miles or so. The only code I'm getting is E55 (closed throttle angle out of range). I assume that this is the culprit behind the rough idle. I will address that this weekend. Now, as per usual, after about an hour of driving from "cold" state (Car sat overnight), the bucking, lagging, surging thing started. Still the ony code I am getting is E55. Could this be a contributing factor, or should I still be looking at the coil pack and ignition module? Could this also be the result of dirty EGR tubes? This "feels" like a fuel problem. If the pump were starting to go bad, what would the symptoms be? I had an old T-bird (65). When the fuel pump went, the car would run for 20 or 30 minutes, then run likecrap, then shut down. Leave it sit for a while, and it would run again. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Have you checked the proper operation of the closed throttle switch on the idle speed control motor? Search the archives for ISC or Idle Speed Control and read up. There is a method to test this switch while in diagnostic mode. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 System won't let you search "ISC," as search strings have to be 4 characters or more. This should be addressed, as so MANY terms are three letter strings (PCM, ISC, DIC, OBD, DTC, EGR, MAP, MAT, MAF, etc, etc, etc.). Anyway, searched "Idle Speed Control," and came up with one semi-helpful post. Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Search the old message board - http://caddysearch.netgetgoing.com/mbarchives/ There is a TON of information on the ISC. You'll need to sift through it but I know there are threads pertaining to the early '90s cars. One of the icons on the climate control panel indicated the ststus of the closed throttle switch while in diagnostic mode. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timokon@yahoo.com Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 In reading the post by spazz about overheating, a question ran thru my mind. Does the 4.9 have a "limp" (I hate that word ) mode? And is what my car is doing under HOT conditions an overheating issue that I'm not getting an idiot lite for? If so, is there a sending unit that I can replace, and wire to a gauge so that I can see the actual temp? OR, is there a way to monitor the temp thru the DIC? Cheers, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Have you changed the fuel filter? Have you put a guage on your fuel rail? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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