Diesels...

[JasonA]

This isn't exactly on topic, but we've tossed some thoughts around on the issue before, and I wanted to bring it up again.

I opened my new July 2004 issue of Car and Driver to read about the 2005 Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI. It's a 3.2L inline-6 turbo diesel. Makes a modest 201 horsepower @ 4200 rpm, but a powerful 369 lb*ft of torque @1800-2600. 0-60 times are 7.1 and 1/4 mile is 15.3 @ 91. That's right on the heels of most of our Northstar-powered Cadillacs. The best part, in my book, is the fuel mileage. EPA-rated 27 mpg in the city, and a big 37 mpg on the highway. In a 2-ton vehicle that accelerates like it weighs much less. A quote: "Diesel clatter? Yes, it's still there--for about five minutes at startup, particularly on cold mornings. Beyond that, the CDI is generally quieter than its gasoline counterpart. Diesel stink? Not a hint."

On top of the better mileage and similar performance, diesel fuel is considerably cheaper than 87 octane gasoline. You also have the potential to run petroleum-free fuels in a diesel engine, although they're obviously not available at the present. I read the other day that Dodge builds 2.7-liter diesel Caravans right on the same line as their gasoline counterparts -- but the diesels are obviously not available in the US. I sure wish they would be. Same goes for my Cadillac. I'd love it if the next STS that comes out is available with a relatively fuel frugal diesel, and still made the performance numbers that meets that of today's Seville.

Mercedes-Benz did it, and I think Cadillac would too if the demand was here in America. That's a very big "IF", and I realize it's the reason behind the diesel engine's lack of availability in America. Most of the rest of the world has embraced it; I wish we would too, because I don't want to have to buy a truck to get a diesel engine.

[Ranger]

If fuel prices keep going up, they will be back. That's what brought them last time. Hopefully GM will do a better job this time, been there done that and still have a bad taste in my mouth when I think of a diesel. As far as price goes, not long ago I recall seeing it for as much a premium here in northern Ill. Talk about a ripoff. That is where the oil companies are making a killing. Bottm of the barrel and least refined and still as much as gasoline.

[Poobah]

I'm sorry but my impression of diesels is that they are slow, noisy, smokey and smelly. GM will have to work some real magic to sell me on a diesel Cadillac. Diesels might be great in trucks, busses, and locomotives but I personally think they are a poor choice for a civilized automobile.

[67coupedeville]

My high school auto mechanics teacher said that if it was not for the GM 350 diesel, we would all be driving diesels. When Ford needed a diesel for their trucks they went to International, when Dodge needed a diesel they went to Cummins. GM liked to do things themselves, he went on to say that GM did such a poor job engineering the 350 that they were blowing the heads off of them almost immediately as well as you could not tow anything with them, they were for transportation only.

He also had said that the 6.2 L diesel was over engineered. I'm just wondering if he was right with his accusations or was he just blowing smoke...no P.U.N. intended .

BTW, I'd love to have a diesel powered Caddy especially when diesel is roughly 25% cheaper than 87 octane where I'm from. Also I think it would be so sexy to have a Chevy 2500 4X4 with a Caterpillar decal to go along with an engine ...Wishful thinking!

Spence

[Marika]

This isn't exactly on topic, but we've tossed some thoughts around on the issue before, and I wanted to bring it up again.

I opened my new July 2004 issue of Car and Driver to read about the 2005 Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI. It's a 3.2L inline-6 turbo diesel. Makes a modest 201 horsepower @ 4200 rpm, but a powerful 369 lb*ft of torque @1800-2600. 0-60 times are 7.1 and 1/4 mile is 15.3 @ 91. That's right on the heels of most of our Northstar-powered Cadillacs. The best part, in my book, is the fuel mileage. EPA-rated 27 mpg in the city, and a big 37 mpg on the highway. In a 2-ton vehicle that accelerates like it weighs much less. A quote: "Diesel clatter? Yes, it's still there--for about five minutes at startup, particularly on cold mornings. Beyond that, the CDI is generally quieter than its gasoline counterpart. Diesel stink? Not a hint."

On top of the better mileage and similar performance, diesel fuel is considerably cheaper than 87 octane gasoline. You also have the potential to run petroleum-free fuels in a diesel engine, although they're obviously not available at the present. I read the other day that Dodge builds 2.7-liter diesel Caravans right on the same line as their gasoline counterparts -- but the diesels are obviously not available in the US. I sure wish they would be. Same goes for my Cadillac. I'd love it if the next STS that comes out is available with a relatively fuel frugal diesel, and still made the performance numbers that meets that of today's Seville.

Mercedes-Benz did it, and I think Cadillac would too if the demand was here in America. That's a very big "IF", and I realize it's the reason behind the diesel engine's lack of availability in America. Most of the rest of the world has embraced it; I wish we would too, because I don't want to have to buy a truck to get a diesel engine.

MINI Cooper just built a diesel version of their car, The Cooper D, and they post the following specs:

47 mpg city; 66 mpg highway; 59 mpg average.

All from a 13 gallon tank.

AND, the car has the typical Cooper personality, fast, peppy and fun to drive.

Currently, it's only available in Europe and South Africa but it will get here soon. They just released the convertable edition here in the US and there's a six month waiting list for the car.

[msilva954]

Diesel here is like $1.85 where as regular grade is at $2.20.

I remember when diesel was more expensive here, How times change.

[Dan]

Another problem with diesels is it's lack of cold weather starting ability. In places like the Great Lakes area, Canada or Alaska it'll get cold enough where the diesel will turn into jelly and there will be no way you'll be able to start your car. I remember when I was in Korea, and starting the diesel trucks in the winter was next to impossible. Alot of the drivers would end up burning up their starters because they would crank the engine too much. Another problem with diesels is that most people can't grasp the concept of a wait light, and would try to start their diesel like it was a regular car. They would end up destroying the glow plugs. I made a simple cut out switch/solenoid where you wouldn't be able to start the vehicle until the wait light went off, but I never got to actually test it.

[JasonA]

GM liked to do things themselves, he went on to say that GM did such a poor job engineering the 350 that they were blowing the heads off of them almost immediately as well as you could not tow anything with them, they were for transportation only.

He also had said that the 6.2 L diesel was over engineered. I'm just wondering if he was right with his accusations or was he just blowing smoke...no P.U.N. intended .

That info about the 350 is only partly true. In fact, the diesel 350 was a very beefy block -- they didn't just take a regular gas Olds 350 and put high compression heads on it. The journals were enlarged from 2.5" to a full 3" and the rods and pistons were special to the diesel. It had 22.5:1 compression (it wasn't turbocharged). Much of the problem was lack of maintenance. Remember how important it is to keep your coolant changed in an aluminum Cadillac engine? Same goes for that diesel Olds, except that nobody changed their coolant every 2 years. Corrosion ensued, and at those compression ratios, it was very easy to pop a head gasket. With proper maintenance, Olds 350 diesels are still running around very reliably.

In addition, the 6.2L doesn't have that great of a reputation as I understand. It's really a Detroit Diesel engine and never really amounted to much, at least in the RV world. Now the Duramax is different (it was co-engineered by Isuzu); it's got a great rep and I see them everywhere. They're quiet and efficient.

Personally, I love the diesel engine (can you tell?). Guru and the magazines are right -- modern passenger car diesels are so quiet and stink-free, you can't tell they're diesels. I was next to a Jetta TDI the other day and didn't know it until I read the "TDI" decal on the back. Truly amazing. The problem is (for us diesel lovers), the diesel stigma still exists (see Poobah's and Larry's posts above).

The last THREE vehicles my folks have bought were diesels, although it was a necessity (full-time RVers). Their first was a Ford F-550, with a Powerstroke. That engine was real smooth and powerful. He Banks'ed it with their chip and exhaust and it would REALLY pull that 25k lb 5th wheel RV around. The truck was too small, though (not enough GCWR), so they went to a Ford F-650, with a Cat 3026B. BIGTIME power and torque, and no problems starting in the cold weather (sub zero). You can add an anti-gel agent to the diesel fuel to promote good starting in cold weather. All heavy equipment used anywhere in the world is diesel, so I tend to think the cold weather starting (although a nuisance) isn't that much of a problem. They eventually sold their rig and 5th wheel and moved to a motorhome, with a Cummins ISL 400-hp engine. Something like 1200 lb*ft of torque. "WOT" upshifts occur at a leisurely 1900 rpm.

Those diesel examples are big workhorses, but illustrate that the everyday livability of a diesel isn't much different from a gas engine, if you have the desire or the need.

[Poobah]

Bbobynski, thank you for your interesting comment posted above. I'm sure you are right on this. If sulphur free diesel fuel is key to eliminating the drawbacks, let's not rush to dieselize until it is available in the U.S.

I recently spent a night in a truck stop between Los Angeles and Las Vegas working with a group of U.C.L.A. film school students. Every breath I took was contaminated with the smell of exhaust from two or three dozen trucks idling outside. I can just imagine what the air would be like in any american city or suburb if we were constantly surrounded by thousands of diesel powered automobiles.

I would rather pay the additional cost of higher quality fuel than live in a place that smells like the city bus terminal.

[JasonA]

I recently spent a night in a truck stop between Los Angeles and Las Vegas working with a group of U.C.L.A. film school students. Every breath I took was contaminated with the smell of exhaust from two or three dozen trucks idling outside. I can just imagine what the air would be like in any american city or suburb if we were constantly surrounded by thousands of diesel powered automobiles.

You do realize, of course, that you can't compare a 14-liter diesel engine that was designed decades ago, with one or two million miles on it, in an over-the-road tractor, with a modern, small diesel engine intended for use in a passenger car?! You can run a TDI next to a gasoline Jetta and truly not know the difference between them unless you opened the hood or looked at the emblem. I know -- a family friend has a newer diesel New Beetle. I wouldn't know the difference (and I'm a diesel fanatic) if I didn't see her pull up to the green pump at the service station.

I don't want to live in a city that smells like a bus station either. Fortunately, modern diesels are better than that, and are far from the Mercedes 300Ds and diesel Oldsmobiles we remember from decades ago. An old Mercedes 300D is to the new E320 CDI as an '84 Fleetwood with the HT4100 engine is to the current Northstar. There really is no comparison -- for the better in most cases.

[Poobah]

Jason, you make a good point. When I think of diesel cars, I do think of Mercedes 300Ds and diesel Oldsmobiles from decades ago. If I have to lift the hood to tell if a new diesel is a diesel, then I certainly can't object to it.

[Vince P]

Diesels

All I know is that I have a 1982 Nissan Maxima with a 2.7 liter DIESEL engine.

It has 352,000 miles on it. I get a constant 32 mpg.

The only engine related parts that are not original are:

1. The thermostat

2. The alternator

Glow plugs and hoses are even original

Mercedes did a great job on this new diesel given the fuel economy, the power and its ability to meet polution requirements in 45 states.

What is General Motors doing. The ideal would be a diesel hybrid.

Vince P

[jgr7]

Here in California where I live Diesel is $2.48, 87 gas is $2.22. No push for Diesel here with the price gouging.

Jeff

[JasonA]

Here in California where I live Diesel is $2.48, 87 gas is $2.22. No push for Diesel here with the price gouging.

Wow. Diesel here is in the neighborhood of $1.60/gallon, while unleaded runs near $2.00. I only WISH I had a diesel!

[Ranger]

One thing I would bet money on is when diesels are the norm and gas engines are as rare as diesels are now, diesel will cost as much as gasoline or more, bet on it.

[maydog]

I would buy a deisel sedan, suv or minivan if one was offered that suited my tastes. I think that deisel engines are the next logical progression from gasoline engines. Hybrid cars are cool but it seems like a crutch to add a few MPG (hybrids do not meet the actual economy pronted on the sticker 99% of the time). The benefits are not significant enough to pack 2 different powertrains within a single car when many diesel engines get nearly the same economy with greater performance.

The cool thing is that deisels can be made to run off a variety of fuels. Biodeisel is already available - I dont know too much about it, but I do believe it is made from soybeans not oil. I have also seen them run off of used cooking oil from fast food joints.

It would be sweet to see a supercharged Escalade or STS with propance injection!

[growe3]

For my two cents worth, diesels are stinking, smoking machines. I drive a pretty fair commute and I can always tell when a diesel-powered vehicle, be it a truck or car, is in front of me. Sit next to one in traffic and they sound like a dump truck. Maybe not to bad for them with their windows rolled up, but noisy as hell to everyone else around them.

I am quite sick of seeing Mercedes, Volkswagens, etc., smoking down the road looking so smug as they pollute the air. Going up or downhill behind one of these pieces of junk is just choking. I don’t care what they get for mileage; it doesn’t justify their pollution. I personally don't care what Europeans drive. They have some of the most polluted air around.

I drove many big rigs for many years, they need the large diesel engines to do the work required of this type of vehicle; but many of them are not kept in top shape. As they wear no one wants to do an expensive teardown unless they absolutely have to so they are kept on the road to choke the rest of us until they are forced to repair it.

It’s hard to beat a good running modern gas engine for its clean emissions, and power output.

Sorry if I can’t agree with the diesel enthusiasts in this thread, but this is a daily aggravation with me.

-George