Head Gasket UGH!!

[tnt_travis@hotmail.com]

I bought a 1999 Cadillac seville november of 2006. About april of 2007 I was driving on the highway and the cars temp gauge mysteriously went up to the H and i had to pull over and shut off the engine for a few minutes. I turned it back on and it was fine. It then did this to me off and on for a while and evetually I quit driving it. We replaced the radiator and the thermostat in the car. Now I just resumed driving the vehicle about a month ago. It still over heated on me when driving for a while or on the highway. I bought a combustion leak kit from NAPA and tested it. The fluid turned yellow which means a combustion leak is present. I then took it to my local Cadillac dealer they looked at it, and they told me I do have head gaskets leaking and here is the Engine diagnostic report they gave me:

ENGINE DIAGNOSTIC: The vehicle is overheating on the highway. Client says he has done test for exhaust gases in the cooling system and it failed test. Please advise. When started the car ruan a little rough for a while. Test cooling system for exhaust gases and tested positive. Engine has oil leaks-- Lower crankcase seals and oil manifold and rear valve cover gasket. Also noticed traction control light on checked for codes had brake lamp switch code.

They then gave me an estimate to repair all of ths and the estiamte was $5,550. I declined to get the car repaired right now because that repair is about as much as the car is worth! Does any1 have any suggestions on what you would do? Im stuc, Think maybe trading it in as is to a dealer and not saying anything about it.

[MrEldo97]

Timesert or salvage it. If you have a decent shop you can Timesert it yourself and I'll sell you the tool kit I used at

an attractive price.

Otherwise, put another motor in it or take it to the salvage yard.

[tnt_travis@hotmail.com]

I have no idea how to work on engines by any means...and SAnother motor would be about a $10,000 job.

[MrEldo97]

Shop around. You should be able to have a reman motor installed for less than 10 large.

You have three choices if the head bolts have pulled out of the block:

1. TIMESERT it - $3500 to $5000.

2. Install a reman motor.

3. Scrap it.

[KHE]

I bought a 1999 Cadillac seville november of 2006. About april of 2007 I was driving on the highway and the cars temp gauge mysteriously went up to the H and i had to pull over and shut off the engine for a few minutes. I turned it back on and it was fine. It then did this to me off and on for a while and evetually I quit driving it. We replaced the radiator and the thermostat in the car. Now I just resumed driving the vehicle about a month ago. It still over heated on me when driving for a while or on the highway. I bought a combustion leak kit from NAPA and tested it. The fluid turned yellow which means a combustion leak is present. I then took it to my local Cadillac dealer they looked at it, and they told me I do have head gaskets leaking and here is the Engine diagnostic report they gave me:

ENGINE DIAGNOSTIC: The vehicle is overheating on the highway. Client says he has done test for exhaust gases in the cooling system and it failed test. Please advise. When started the car ruan a little rough for a while. Test cooling system for exhaust gases and tested positive. Engine has oil leaks-- Lower crankcase seals and oil manifold and rear valve cover gasket. Also noticed traction control light on checked for codes had brake lamp switch code.

They then gave me an estimate to repair all of ths and the estiamte was $5,550. I declined to get the car repaired right now because that repair is about as much as the car is worth! Does any1 have any suggestions on what you would do? Im stuc, Think maybe trading it in as is to a dealer and not saying anything about it.

$5550 is almost double what that repair should cost - you need to shop around at other dealers. You don't want a dealer shortcutting the process or you will not have good results. Ask them if they use the Timesert drill fixture. If they do not, fins a dealer who does.

By the way, the car is not worth $5550 with bad head gaskets... It is worth far less so you need to take that into consideration when making your decision on what to do.

[MrEldo97]

In January of '07 Tampa Cadillac Dealer quoted me $5,000.00.

I did the job myself (as you all know...) for a fraction of that.

[BodybyFisher]

We have been historically been quoting a cost of $3000 to timesert the engines at the dealer. While I don't doubt that they quoted you $5,000, they must have NOT wanted to do that job and threw out a HIGH number to you. Maybe you look like you have money...or they wanted you to trade it in. I really don't think they want to timesert engines as they have come backs. Funny however, we have a bunch of DIYers that have done the job and have NOT had come backs.. including yourself at 18K miles

[KHE]

We have been historically been quoting a cost of $3000 to timesert the engines at the dealer. While I don't doubt that they quoted you $5,000, they must have NOT wanted to do that job and threw out a HIGH number to you. Maybe you look like you have money...or they wanted you to trade it in. I really don't think they want to timesert engines as they have come backs. Funny however, we have a bunch of DIYers that have done the job and have NOT had come backs.. including yourself at 18K miles

I have almost 33,000 on my STS since I repaired it. I think one of the reasons that some dealers have combacks is they refuse to follow the service procedures. Case in point - before I bought my STS, it was Timeserted by a dealer in North Carolina. It failed within 5 weeks after the repair and the dealer wouldn't stand behind it. I bought the car and upon disassembly, immediately discovered the cause of the failure: The dealer tech was too lazy to use the drill fixture and free-handed the machining process. The inserts were set 1/4" too deep in the block and when the heads were torqued down, at least 20% of the thread engagement was lost and the inserts fractured. I repaired the block with the Bigserts and it has been fine.

If a DIY can successfully repair the Northstar engine, why are some dealers unable to do it???

[MrEldo97]

Because the techs rush the job under flat rate. That's why.

[BodybyFisher]

Time is money

[MrEldo97]

That's right time is money, money is greed and the hell with the customer.

I think we all see a pattern here - dealer's do a half-azz repair because they don't want to pay techs a decent wage,

techs do half-azz work because they're under the gun to "produce" good work, sh**ty work or otherwise work; DIYs

make failure free repairs because we take the time to do it right...

[BodybyFisher]

That's right time is money, money is greed and the hell with the customer.

I think we all see a pattern here - dealer's do a half-azz repair because they don't want to pay techs a decent wage,

techs do half-azz work because they're under the gun to "produce" good work, sh**ty work or otherwise work; DIYs

make failure free repairs because we take the time to do it right...

I dont think its a greed thing, I think its a WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THE EXTRA WORK INVOLVED IN REPAIRING THIS.. GM, the DEALER, the TECH or the CUSTOMER...

GM needed to step up and fix this a long time ago. Unfortunately, we dont think long term anymore as a nation, things are changing so fast, long term is irrelevant. So reputations go down the toilet and as you say, the customer suffers. To me, once the first NSs started pulling head bolts, it would be back on the drawing board to get STEEL inserts inpregnated into the casting process. END OF PROBLEM

[BodybyFisher]

I LOVE this engine, it to me is the pinnacle of V8 engine development and possibly the last of high performance V8 engines. I have been doing a lot of long distance highway driving over the last 3 months and this car just swoops down the highway. At 65 my engine is sipping gas at 1850 RPM, if I need to open up, I am doing 80-90 in a flash of the eye leaving those who dare to tail gate me at 75 in my wake. And then, I pull into my driveway, in total silence as she purrs.

Enjoy these engines while you can they are outstanding, and truely Cadillac. Its hard to believe that a 281 cu in engine can feel this powerful, it reminds me of my 429's but its even stronger and smoother.

[MrEldo97]

I agree about the Northstar. IMO best V8 on the road these days.

Sad to say, however, the one thing I learned about business is this; When there's money on the table

morality goes right out the window.

The fact is GM had the responsiblity to design a fix for this problem years ago and failed because of greed, the dealership has the responsibility

to see that their technicians perform repairs properly and to the book and not look the other way when these jobs are rushed and sanction the

shoddy work in order to "make more money" that's where the greed comes in and where flat rate fails.

Generally dealerships suck and they suck the money out of your bank account due to poor work and inflated prices.

[BodybyFisher]

I tend to look at the glass as half full and see the statement of GREED as glass as half empty mentality.

I was told at some point for them to cast in steel inserts into the block was going to COST MORE, but I did not get the impression that it could cost much more, $50 per engine, FN DO IT.... period, find some other place to cut that won't come back to hurt us...PERIOD. This is STUPIDITY, a lack of big picture and allowing bean counters to impact the reputation of a GREAT company. Sort of like what VISTA is doing to Microsoft. Keep in mind that GM has had difficulty surviving financially during the time that the NS has been in production.

I do not know if it still happens but I had heard that EVERY 429 was run on a dyno before it was installed in a car. We go from dyno testing to worrying about $50?, to retain our reputation? PLEASE. Its pure stupidity, its like shooting yourself in your FOOT. Its a lack of communication and action.

BUT, keep in mind that the NSs that go belly up are only a fraction of the total. Does that give anyone comfort buying a used NS not knowing its history? Here are things that would bother me in a NS's history, that you will never know:

Having lost its coolant and gone into overheat limp mode

coolant having not been changed on time

green being put in accidently, THEN, DEXCOOL

a NS that was "just driven to church" with NO WOTs

a pre-1999 NS that didn't have its oil changed on time

Know the history of the NS you buy. No one should purchase a bad NS having visited this board.

The next NS I buy, I will

ask open ended dumb questions, the first one being, I heard these engines can run even if it looses its coolant do you know if that's true?

has the water pump been changed?, yes? why?

buy a coolant test kit including combustion by-products and acidity (overdue change)

run codes with my autotap attached to it to see if there were and recent PCM resets

look for a battery disconnect code (an effort to hide problems)

inspect for a case half leak

smell for coolant (crossover, heater pipes, end tanks)

drive to car to a jiffy lube to have 10W30 put into it THEN drive it, looking for oil pressure lights and noise

take on a hard hilly long incline ride watching the temp gauge, and sprinkle with WOT's, the ride should be long enough for the PCM to go through a drive cycle an begin setting codes if any components fail its testing.

[KHE]

I agree about the Northstar. IMO best V8 on the road these days.

Sad to say, however, the one thing I learned about business is this; When there's money on the table

morality goes right out the window.

The fact is GM had the responsiblity to design a fix for this problem years ago and failed because of greed, the dealership has the responsibility

to see that their technicians perform repairs properly and to the book and not look the other way when these jobs are rushed and sanction the

shoddy work in order to "make more money" that's where the greed comes in and where flat rate fails.

Generally dealerships suck and they suck the money out of your bank account due to poor work and inflated prices.

Keep in mind the vehicle in question is almost 10 years old. GM designed a fix for the problem - the Timesert. It was developed while the Northstar engine was being designed and qualified - it was not an after the fact fix. GM needed a method to repair blocks during development testing and designed the Timesert. The problem is the dealerships who cheat the system and do not follow the proper repair process. When the repair fails, they blame the Northstar engine, GM, etc.

My feeling is that GM needs to start cracking down on these shyster dealerships - by whatever means necessary.

[zonie77]

His estimate may be higher because it includes the case half seal.