milansky

seville 1996 transmission stuck in second gear

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Hi guys. This is quite interesting case since faulty transmission is out of question. Non shifting transmission on SEVILLE SLS 1996 (76 000 miles) has been dealt with by putting overhauled one in. Despite putting in overhauled transmission in car is still suffering with no shifting problems of being stuck in second gear. Codes appearing relate to traction control and ABS – TC 0027 and TC 0073. Obviously after test drive SERVICE TRANSMISSION comes on with 0741 code but this one is out of question since all seals, gaskets and solenoids were changed including valve body. The questions stands whether TRANCTION CONTROL and ABS module could have any role with transmission refusing to shift properly. Speed sensor on tranny functions properly, front wheel hubs with sensors changed for new ones.  Any ideas? Milan

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No, there is no shift. R works fine. TC  and ABS light had been on for ages never had any influence on tranny. Thx.

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A few things.

If the ABS and traction lights have been on for ages then the transmission has shifted differently for ages.

Also if you are still getting the P0741 then there is a problem with the torque converter, whether trans has been overhauled or not. Something may have been missed.

Was the transmission harness inspected? Did the issues start right after install?

What was the reason for overhauling the transmission in the first place?

Lastly Welcome To CaddyInfo Forum. Hope we can help you figure it out


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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Dear Rockfangd.

The reason for transmission overhaul was no shifting. Basically after engaging into D there was only speed up to 45 mph, high rpm and that's it - obviously P0741 code came up + service transmission light. So we figured that there might be also seal or gasket issues - low pressure within, valve body or sensors buried deep inside. All of that had been changed including filters, solenoids and wiring changed. Tranny looked very clean inside no metal residue from grinding or any of that SERIOUS stuff. Converter was also examined and has not shown any difficulties in turning or breakage of something inside. Still it is a 1996 Seville model with barely above 76000 miles on it so it is CANDY CAR well taken care of.

As I mentioned above, ABS light and TRACTION CONTROL light had been on for a long time and never resulted in no shifting situation as. There are codes for rear wheel speed sensors, they will be checked again for resistance.

Question stands, whether the ABS and TRACTION lights could have such serious role to play in transmission shifting. It seems like if transmission was in some kind of limp mode or something.

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On 6/26/2017 at 2:47 AM, milansky said:

Obviously after test drive SERVICE TRANSMISSION comes on with 0741 code but this one is out of question since all seals, gaskets and solenoids were changed including valve body.

It is not out of the question, it is happening... Does this overhauled transmission have any kind of warranty? 

Something to remember - just because the part is new doesn't always mean it is good.

 

On 6/26/2017 at 2:47 AM, milansky said:

Despite putting in overhauled transmission in car is still suffering with no shifting problems of being stuck in second gear. Codes appearing relate to traction control and ABS – TC 0027 and TC 0073.

Since the transmission is STILL NOT shifting, it is pretty safe to say the problem is in the wiring to the transmission or the REBUILT transmission has a bad 1-2 shift solenoid and/or a defective TCC solenoid. MAYBE the "rebuilder" left it unplugged or bent one of the terminals, the list of defect possibilities is endless. Personally, I would suspect the wiring to the transmission is damaged from the information you have provided. Also, the wheel speed sensor wiring is or has been defective/damaged for some time.

Was this a factory rebuilt transmission? Was it rebuilt by tranny Joe Schmo in his garage? Was the torque converter changed?

Disable the traction control and see if there is any change in the symptoms at all.

CHECK the multi-pin wiring connector to the transmission and CHECK ALL the terminals and the wiring. If everything looks good, pull the transmission pan and check the harness and all the connectors.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Sounds like shift solenoids also check the main plug.

You should test the shift solenoid resistance through the main plug to confirm they and their wiring is good


Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >> http://z-cut.de/US/dtcobd1.html

1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> http://carprogrammer.com/Z28/PCM/OBD2/On-BoardDiagnosticTroubleCodes(OBD-II).mht

How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year  http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm

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The ABS and Traction lights will not cause your issue but I would assume overtime it would not be good for the health of the transmission.

If it has warranty I would be returning it to where the transmission was overhauled.

I would not consider reusing a torque converter on one of these, especially if that code was present.

Best of luck. 


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Anyone can explain what they mean by - measured across the terminals? In GM service manual it says: Shift solenoid resistance should measure 19 - 24 ohms. Shift solenoid current flow should not exceed 0,75 amps. The shift solenoid valve should energize at a voltage 7,5 volts or more (measured across the terminals). IMPORTANT: if both solenoids lose power only second gear shift will result = my situation but I need to clarify what they mean by across the terminals. We will check it through the main electrical connector end for transmission We shall also check the line pressure if it is within PSI as listed in the manual. Thx

Edited by milansky

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This would be "measured across the terminals"

0900c152800aa070.gif


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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OK, from what I see they require to measure it directly on solenoid itself by removing oil pan and not through the main electrical connector transmission end. It is a third time Im draining transmission.

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As @BodybyFisher stated, 

15 hours ago, BodybyFisher said:

Sounds like shift solenoids also check the main plug.

You should test the shift solenoid resistance through the main plug to confirm they and their wiring is good

This will give you an indication of the condition before you drain the trans again 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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UPDATE: Both shift solenoids display required resistance 19 - 24 ohms (reading at 21,8 ohms). So we did one tricky thing. We clipped onto a wire (Engine side end) from 1-2 solenoid (light green) + 2-3 solenoid (yel/blk) + TCC solenoid (tan) + ground connection to manually command a shift. We made something like a switch board to which our wire clips were attached and took it for test drive. In "D" - solenoid A ON  solenoid B OFF in first gear, in second gear A - OFF, B OFF, in third gear A OFF - B ON, in fourth gear A ON - B ON. Commanding through those switches did not change a thing so basically car was still in second with no change in rpms like of you had stick shift and changed your gear/speed by depressing clutch and upshifted by hand manually. So it is not electrical issue- shift solenoids or TCC.

Does someone have a color diagram that would show how fluid travels within transmission when "D" is selected? There might be some kind of miniature blockage in valve body or something. Thanks 

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Sounds "tricky" but I'm not sure that is a valid by-pass. I would be very concerned about applying voltage to a circuit or grounding a circuit which is controlled by a PCM or any electronic module. What voltage were you applying? How did you control the applied voltage? I'll have to do some research on that one. Normally the PCM controls the grounds etc.. The only way I know of to properly "command" transmission shift & TCC operation is by a Tech2.

Be sure to do the line pressure test you talked about earlier.

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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On 6/28/2017 at 0:56 AM, milansky said:

We shall also check the line pressure if it is within PSI as listed in the manual.

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Here is the electrical diagram  DID you check the transmission fuse?

4t80E.png

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Please give more information on this "rebuild"

On 6/27/2017 at 10:45 AM, OldCadTech said:

Was this a factory rebuilt transmission? Was it rebuilt by tranny Joe Schmo in his garage? Was the torque converter changed?

Did this all happen during driving, on initial start up or was it experiencing shifting issues for some time?


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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I'm seeing resistance values for 1-2 solenoid at 65 degrees F to be 20-30 - at 175F the range is 23 - 50 ohms, what was the temp of the transmission when you took the Ohm readings. I'm also seeing the TCC solenoid being a pulse width modulation control, which you would have no way of duplicating that signal.

I'm concerned that the PCM is possibly damaged by trace voltage at this point.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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You are killing me on this one. Temperature was as listed in the manual after a short warm up. PCM damaged? That would mess the whole car up not? Engine runs smooth and all other electronics are fine too or r u talking about pcm damage of transmission section in the pcm only? Will check the transmission fuse again. Regarding question above. Car was running absolutely fine never had any issues with transmission at all. No hard shifts whining noise or any of that. As I mentioned before Caddy is just above 76200 miles. But one day after traffic light stop transmission gave up on me. 

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I'll try to get back later. it is very difficult to do a long distance diagnostics, so we need as much information as you can give, even if it seems trivial or not related to your problem. Vehicle mileage has no bearing on a malfunction.... I've worked on Cadillacs with less than 100 miles on them...

later.........

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Cannot say Just cadillacs 

Any car period.

Miles are just a number. I have cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on them with no problems,

then I see other cars with low miles with constant issues

Was the torque converter replaced?

Where was the transmission overhauled?

To be sure it is doing exactly the same thing as it was before the overhaul?

I didnt see any response to these unless I missed them. 


GM FAN FOREVER

Nice, clean, luxury= fine automobile

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We are not trying to "kill" you. We are actually trying to help you. There is a real trouble shooting "path" to follow, we need you to focus on the same path.


@rockfangd Is absolutely correct, mileage IS only a number and Cadillac is not the only vehicle to have problems.

Also, Yes, I was referring to the PCM PROBABLY being damaged as it relates to the transmission, Maybe you are very lucky and the PCM is fine. My past experience tells me any kind of stray voltage, voltage spikes, static electricity or opposing voltage can and usually does damage electronic modules.

We need to know:

1) Is this the same transmission case that was rebuilt or was another ( rebuilt ) transmission purchased and installed?

2) Where was the transmission overhauled?

3) Was the torque converter replaced?

4) What is the line pressure?

5) What voltage were you applying to the shift solenoids and the TCC solenoid? 9v ? 10v ? 12v?

6) How did you control the applied voltage?

7) Did you personally overhaul or assist in the overhaul of the transmission - if so, are you 100% sure all the check balls are in the correct locations?

8) A list of ALL the codes hard or soft, current or history. Cadillacs systems, and those of other vehicles also interact with each other

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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1) Is this the same transmission case that was rebuilt or was another ( rebuilt ) transmission purchased and installed? It is the same case with all gaskets, seals, filters and solenoids replaced for new.

2) Where was the transmission overhauled? At a private garage/service guy. I know it is risky but this supposed excellent. They say...Anyway he is ready to open it again.

3) Was the torque converter replaced?  NO, before transmission was removed converter was checked for slippage at dealer claiming there is no need for converter replacement. How a dealer done the testing I have no clue

4) What is the line pressure? Since Im based in Europe not yet we r looking for a proper adapter for line pressure port.

5) What voltage were you applying to the shift solenoids and the TCC solenoid? 9v ? 10v ? 12v? 12V.

6) How did you control the applied voltage? voltmeter

7) Did you personally overhaul or assist in the overhaul of the transmission - if so, are you 100% sure all the check balls are in the correct locations? yes, technician was provided with original GM service manuals. This should be OK.

8) A list of ALL the codes hard or soft, current or history. Cadillacs systems, and those of other vehicles also interact with each other Have to find my paper. Will get it later.

When it comes to line pressure, does anyone have a color diagram where it is clear how fluid flows during gear changes? It would help to clarify possible causes for not having FIRST, THIRD and FOURTH gear.  

Thanks, you guys are great.

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Thank You, That helps a lot :)

1) This tells me that the problem did not change and it is something that was missed in the rebuild or an error occurred causing the same symptom.

2) One of the check balls missing can cause 2nd gear only. It is easy to put them in the wrong place, I've seen techs who have done hundreds of trans overhaul put them wrong

3) This was to eliminate a defective TC, It was always common practice to replace the TC during overhaul, BUT only REQUIRED under conditions of clutch pack failure, metal            contamination etc. which I don't think you had any of those conditions so it should be okay.

4) This will reveal a lot.

5) Ouch... these are usually a 5v reference inside the PCM. We'll have to wait and see

6) See #5 All those solenoids you actuated and the wiring needs to be inspected and tested with the chain/side cover & pan off, especially the TCC solenoid as it is Pulse Width Modulated 

7) See #2

8) This is to see if another system is possibly causing something on a shared circuit. 

I'll see if I can dig up a flow chart for you.

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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