what kinda performance brake r out there

[Scotty]

Let me correct that, 145K on the rears, you should check them out, especially see if they need to be bled, if there is air in the line, they would not compress hard at all, the parking brakes would work as they are mechanical, but your service brake if there was air in the line would allow the rear to loaf and not really wear, take a look at your rear rotors, my guess is that they are blue from heat..

[KHE]

I would definitely inspect the rear brakes to make sure they are functioning properly. 145,000 miles seems too good to be true...

[JimD]

Here is the bedding procedure I use:

Ten hard brake applications from 45 MPH to 5 MPH. Avoid activating ABS. After 4 or 5 applications, you might smell burning glue and see smoke. That would be good news.

Park the car for an hour (do not use park brake) and repeat.

Not all brake mechanics can take the time to attend to details. Details like cleaning the hub-to-rotor surfaces and the rotor-to-wheel surfaces. There must be no rust or other oxidation present.

Proper wheel torque and sequence is critical.

Those who have been convinced that OEM parts will not deliver a trouble-free vibration-free stop for many many miles are welcome to drive my cars for a demo.

And the idea of performance brake parts on a street car is lost on me. My OEM setup will invoke ABS; what else can brakes do?

[Scotty]

Thanks for the bedding procedure Jim

[etcxtc]

The two Devilles I've owned, a '97 Concours and the current '98 Deville are the only cars that I have ever had a warpage problem with. I've never had this sort of problem on my Eldorados. The rotors are literally warped like a compact disc or a record album when left in the sun too long. It's not a problem of "grabbing or shuddering." It is a problem with lateral runout resulting in a hard lateral vibration.

When did General Motors or any manufacturer start "bedding" the brakes off the assemble line? Check your owners manuals. Most will say to avoid hard braking during the first 200 miles. My Dad was a professional mechanic his entire life and never "bedded" brakes. If you are seeing and smelling smoke, you are taking the brakes to the point of overheating and scorching the pads. It's not anything I would do to a vehicle with new brakes.

[Scotty]

This is when we miss our guru, the non-believers....pinch hit gurus, please step up here...when members with problems start reading from the manual and not listening to reasoning, I am no longer able to help, especially when they are argumentative. I find this amazing when this member CAN NOT fix the problem he has but CONTINUES to read the MANUAL to me ROTE and site how his dad is a mechanic.... Seems this person knows it all and does not need my help is the way I look at it.... MY DEVILLE IS FINE and DOES NOT WARP ROTORS, GOT IT? ANd many others here will say the same FN thing, YOU SIR are doing SOMETHING wrong! You OBVIOUSLY have a problem and I don't care WHO or WHAT mechanic you have OBVIOUSLY they are NOT capable of FIXING your problem!. If you want to be open minded about this we can HELP you, if you want to read me the FN manual we can not help you!

I guarantee your diagnosis regarding your rotors is wrong. Or you have some other problem like debris on the flange causing this... Other issues cause the runout you are describing, bad hub, bent flange, debris on flange

Did you take time to read that article? You are suffering from a CLASSIC mistake here, you BELIEVE that this is something wrong with the DEVILLE, either a design problem, under rated rotors ETC....(you use the ELDO as support for your belief that the Deville rotors have a problem). THAT is your problem, you believe you have the answer already, and guess what YOU DO NOT!

Give us more details, who does your brake jobs, who manufactures the rotors and pads? Did they replace the rubber bushings? Are these new rotors. How did you determine run out, dial indicator? Have you done the back? How are the back brakes. Have the brakes been bled? How were they bled? I do not believe that your rotors are repeatedly warping like a CD in the sun, how was that determined? I believe the rears are the problem on this car, I am near 100% sure that the rears are not working at all and overheating the fronts.. Give us details.

[JimD]

....

The rotors are literally warped like a compact disc or a record album when left in the sun too long.  It's not a problem of "grabbing or shuddering."  It is a problem with lateral runout resulting in a hard lateral vibration.

When did General Motors or any manufacturer start "bedding" the brakes off the assemble line?  Check your owners manuals.  Most will say to avoid hard braking during the first 200 miles.  My Dad was a professional mechanic his entire life and never "bedded" brakes.  If you are seeing and smelling smoke, you are taking the brakes to the point of overheating and scorching the pads.  It's not anything I would do to a vehicle with new brakes.

Ok; your rotors are not 'true'. Something caused the lateral run-out. I know of one case where bent wheels (plural) that were rotated on a 6,000 mile schedule was the cause of 'warped' rotors on all 4 corners. Aluminum wheels are easily bent with no visible evidence and the lateral force applied to a rotor by a bent wheel at 70+ MPH is tremendous.

GM is obligated to deliver a vehicle that meets the advertised specifications. If you are the original owner, you might have a beef with GM. Otherwise, caveat emptor.

The offer to come drive my OEM parts equipped, bedded brake procedure applied, '98 model stands. I would be happy to load a pix of rotors that were bedded with new pads 40,000 miles in the past. They somehow survived the bedding process I described.

[etcxtc]

This discussion is over! No matter what I say, you continue to preach. The more I say the more you continue to publicly berate me. Just because I don't agree with you and I try state my position you don't have to get nasty about it. You are a very bright and intelligent man Scotty, I've read your posts for quite awhile and you have a lot of great infomation to pass on, but you didn't need to make this personal. You are reading WAY TOO MUCH into my last post. I'm glad your Deville doesn't have warped rotors! I GOT IT!!! I also GOT IT that this isn't an open forum of discussion and exchange of ideas. It is a DO AS I SAY DO OR ELSE!

[Scotty]

This is an exchange of ideas, you have a brake problem that IS fixable but you don't seem to want to fix them. Why is that? In addition, I suggest that bedding is important and you SPIT in the face of a GURU GM ENGINEER that designed the NORTHSTAR that INFORMED us to bed the brakes, using your dad as defense My dad was a B-17 mechanic what relavance does that have here?

Ditto, look at your last post, I don't need to know about your Dad was a professional mechanic, did he design the Northstar? Is he a GM engineer? What does he know about the current version of the Cadillac? I sir had to RE-LEARN a TON of stuff with this car.. If he was a professional mechanic, why do you still have a problem? Let me repeat, your 'problem' is fixable!

You have a brake problem and you refuse to keep an open mind, you want to argue and defend, you believe there is a problem instead of keeping an open mind. If you want to fix the problem we will help, its not necessary to know your fathers job history.. Buy drilled rotors, they will work fine for you, and you will continue to believe that the stock OEM brakes are deficient in some way...

I on the other hand do not believe that the OEM system is deficient. If you read that article I posted a link to you would understand a whole lot more and you would understand why BEDDING the brakes is important. Here is the link again:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

This is from the article, NOTICE NEW DISKS

If possible, new discs should be bedded with used pads of the same compound that will be used going forward. Again, heat should be put into the system gradually - increasingly hard stops with cool off time in between. Part of the idea is to avoid prolonged contact between pad and disc. With abrasive pads (which should not be used on high performance cars) the disc can be considered bedded when the friction surfaces have attained an even blue color. With the carbon metallic type pads, bedding is complete when the friction surfaces of the disc are a consistent gray or black. In any case, the discoloration of a completely broken in disc will be complete and uniform.

Here is another clip:

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.

This bedding was NOT necessary in the old days! The rotors weighed a ton, these rotors are light and need proper break-in. Take time to read the article.

[KHE]

The two Devilles I've owned, a '97 Concours and the current '98 Deville are the only cars that I have ever had a warpage problem with. I've never had this sort of problem on my Eldorados. The rotors are literally warped like a compact disc or a record album when left in the sun too long. It's not a problem of "grabbing or shuddering." It is a problem with lateral runout resulting in a hard lateral vibration.

When did General Motors or any manufacturer start "bedding" the brakes off the assemble line? Check your owners manuals. Most will say to avoid hard braking during the first 200 miles. My Dad was a professional mechanic his entire life and never "bedded" brakes. If you are seeing and smelling smoke, you are taking the brakes to the point of overheating and scorching the pads. It's not anything I would do to a vehicle with new brakes.

Owner's manuals do not go into specifics such as bedding in brake linings. The factory service manual specifically states in the the last paragraph under the general brakes section: "Burnishing Rotors: After brake pads have been replaced and/or rotors have been resurfaced it is recommended that the new braking surfaces be broken in or burnished to properly seat them. This can be accomplished by making 20 stops from 30 MPH, using medium to firm pressure. Avoid overheating the brakes."

There is no design defect in the OEM brake systems - it sounds like you need to have the rotors turned to clean up the surfaces - make sure the machine shop applies a non-directional finish after machining.

[JasonA]

In my experience on a lot of cars, rear brakes will last a LONG time if the car isn't raced. 100k miles isn't out of the norm at all. I agree I've been lucky with almost 150k miles. But I don't agree that the fronts are doing a disporportionate amount of work...because these front pads have lasted over 60k miles now, and still have life left. 60k miles on the FRONT pads of a FWD car is pretty durn good.

My wife had a '97 Saturn with about 80,000 miles on it when we got married. I once rotated the tires on it, and found that the small "star washer" brake drum retainer was still on the rear drums from the factory...like the drums had never come off. I checked the rear brakes and they looked like new, even at 80,000 miles. She owned the car since 7,000 miles, so we know no brakes were ever put on the back. I would expect WELL over 100k on those rear brakes, and with the way I drive and the conditions in which I drive, I don't think well over 100k is unreasonable for rear brakes on a Seville either, in my opinion.

[Scotty]

In my experience on a lot of cars, rear brakes will last a LONG time if the car isn't raced. 100k miles isn't out of the norm at all. I agree I've been lucky with almost 150k miles. But I don't agree that the fronts are doing a disporportionate amount of work...because these front pads have lasted over 60k miles now, and still have life left. 60k miles on the FRONT pads of a FWD car is pretty durn good.

My wife had a '97 Saturn with about 80,000 miles on it when we got married. I once rotated the tires on it, and found that the small "star washer" brake drum retainer was still on the rear drums from the factory...like the drums had never come off. I checked the rear brakes and they looked like new, even at 80,000 miles. She owned the car since 7,000 miles, so we know no brakes were ever put on the back. I would expect WELL over 100k on those rear brakes, and with the way I drive and the conditions in which I drive, I don't think well over 100k is unreasonable for rear brakes on a Seville either, in my opinion.

I think the drilled rotors can hide a lot of ills as they stay so much cooler.. If you have not bled your brakes in 101K, do it for me, I am curious... Mike

[JasonA]

I haven't touched the braking system beyond front pads/rotors. The previous brake services by the dealer may have included a brake bleed, I don't know. What are you looking for? Dirt? Discoloration? I've never had to add an oz. of brake fluid.

[Scotty]

I haven't touched the braking system beyond front pads/rotors.  The previous brake services by the dealer may have included a brake bleed, I don't know.  What are you looking for?  Dirt?  Discoloration?  I've never had to add an oz. of brake fluid.

Jason, I am looking for air in the rear system. I have a feeling that your rears lasted so long because you have air in the system and the air is compressing, not the pads. I have a feeling that when you bleed the rear system (front and rear are separate), you will be peeling your nose off the steering wheel, with those drilled rotors on the front when the rears kick in!

Many brake maintenance procedures recommend bleeding and even changing the fluid every time the pads are changed...

Here is some information, I think flushing out the fluid annually is excessive but it should be done at least at pad change:

Because DOT 3 & DOT 4 fluid is glycol based, it absorbs moisture over time. Moisture seeps in through microscopic pores in the rubbers seals and hoses. It enters every time someone opens the master cylinder reservoir to check the fluid level. Most fluid reservoirs are transparent so the level can be checked without having to open the lid. Brake fluid is so hygroscopic (attracts water) that leaving the lid off fresh brake fluid can ruin it overnight--it will absorb so much water from the air it will be too contaminated to use.

Moisture contaminates the fluid causing a drop in its boiling point which leads to fluid boil and brake fade during hard use. Moisture causes internal corrosion in the calipers, wheel cylinders, and steel lines. The reason for replacing the fluid periodically is to get rid of the contaminated fluid and to restore the heat and corrosion resistance of the fluid.

When a car's brake fluid is one year old, it contains 2.5% water. At 18 months, the water moves up to 3% which is enough to lower the boiling point of the fluid by 25%. After a few years, fluid can have 7% to 8% water. Many experts recommend changing brake fluid at two years or 24,000 miles. At the very least flush the brake fluid completely at every brake job.

You SHOULD bleed your system and change your fluid at least once a year to get the moisture laden old fluid out. Your brake system will last much longer this way as the moisture in old fluid causes corrosion of the brake systems internal parts. If you are racing or using the car for hard driving and braking, the fluid changes should be much more frequent than that.

[JasonA]

Scotty, have you bled yours? Does it just take a simple bleed kit like it used to, or does that ABS module and other stuff complicate the procedure? Maybe I'll do that this fall.

[Scotty]

Scotty, have you bled yours? Does it just take a simple bleed kit like it used to, or does that ABS module and other stuff complicate the procedure? Maybe I'll do that this fall.

I have not, its not as easy with the ABS as it was years ago with a partner in the driver seat and the DOWN UP routine, I actually took it to the dealer and requested that they do it last year, its hard to get the dealer to do just ONE thing I will admit.

I plan to learn the procedure now and do it myself for now on. I have a mighty-vac and was looking at this http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1..._2050&SKU=85700

Mike

[KHE]

Scotty, have you bled yours? Does it just take a simple bleed kit like it used to, or does that ABS module and other stuff complicate the procedure? Maybe I'll do that this fall.

A simple bleed hose is all that's required. I suck as much fluid from the master cylinder as possible and wipe it out, then refill with fresh fluid. I use a handheld vacuum pump and a large reservoir that I made from a mayonaise jar - I install the hose over the bleeder screw, and draw vacuum on the jar, and crack the bleeder screw and let it flow until I can see the new fluid in the hose.

A full exchange of fluid takes 1 quart of brake fluid.

[JasonA]

So as Kevin mentioned, you can use a one-man brake bleeder kit. I've seen those kits in the Griots Garage catalogs before, but I'm sure I can get a one-man bleed kit for less than 70 bucks. I'll look into it.

Just like the brakes themselves, I'm sure once I actually buy the kit and do it, I'll find that it's much easier than I anticipated it being.

[Scotty]

Kevin, do you need to depresurize the ABS by pumping it?

[keith_99_sts]

Here is the bedding procedure I use:

Ten hard brake applications from 45 MPH to 5 MPH.  Avoid activating ABS.  After 4 or 5 applications, you might smell burning glue and see smoke.  That would be good news.

That sounds 'bout right. When I did that, maybe got around 8 stops before there was a huge cloud of smoke coming off both front wheels. Drove it slowly for a few miles and parked it to cool off.

The original front pads got to 50K miles or so, the replacements now have 25K on them. Original rotors, not touched when the pads were changed. Mostly I use gently braking, with the occasional hard stop. The rear pads just got changed at 75K miles, didn't touch the rotors. The pads were totally worn through and the brake indicator on the dashboard had been there for a while. Fortunately the rotors are still good.

I can't knock the OEM setup. It's working great here. For normal and even aggressive road use, the brakes are more than adequate.

[Scotty]

So as Kevin mentioned, you can use a one-man brake bleeder kit.  I've seen those kits in the Griots Garage catalogs before, but I'm sure I can get a one-man bleed kit for less than 70 bucks.  I'll look into it.

Just like the brakes themselves, I'm sure once I actually buy the kit and do it, I'll find that it's much easier than I anticipated it being.

Cool Jason, let us know how it works out. the only problem I see however is your bleeder screws may be rusted solid, be careful, use a 6 point wrench, not 12 point. I would begin soaking them down with a good rust/bolt loosener... Be careful with this, I have seen more than my share of bleeders break off... Anyone have any ideas with this?

Have a look at these, I like them, Kevin you think these are compatible with Caddy ABS systems?

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

I just sent an email to speed bleeder to see if they are available for Cadillacs

AD>>> These are pretty cool and are getting rave reviews from all the magazines and auto web sites. They eliminate time consuming and messy brake bleeding and make it a one-person job! Simply install, loosen 1/2 turn, slowly step on the brakes about 4-5 times, tighten and you're done! This valve bleeds the brakes without allowing air back into the system using a spring check valve! Simple and Ingenious! COST and TIME EFFECTIVE!

[Scotty]

I can't knock the OEM setup. It's working great here. For normal and even aggressive road use, the brakes are more than adequate.

Thanks for that feedback Keith.

[keith_99_sts]

Have a look at these, I like them!

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

Wow, those look great! (if they work as claimed, and they seem simple enough). As you say, it is quite common for the bleeders to freeze and require a lot of effort to remove, or worse, destroy.

I never opened the bleeders when I changed pads on the STS. Loosened the cap to the reservoir and used a caliper to push the front piston back in and used the special widget to rotate the rear pistons back in. Sears sell a heavy duty tool to push the front pistons in, about $18. The rear widget costs about $13 at Pepboys. You can improvise for both (regular C clamp at the front, needle nose pliers at the rear).

With familiarity, it's a 60 minute job to change all four sets of pads.

[Scotty]

Here is more information on flushing out the brake fluid:

http://www.type2.com/library/brakes/brakef.htm

[JasonA]

I can't knock the OEM setup. It's working great here. For normal and even aggressive road use, the brakes are more than adequate.

Keep in mind that the '99 brakes are completely different (and improved) over the brakes on the 96-97 Sevilles and 96-99 Devilles.