MARK 99STS Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Well after all this time and effort, my motor is toast. The performance shop that put the motor back together forgot to tighten down the cam caps on the back head and after about 10 miles the caps let loose and the cams slamed into the valve cover carving a 1/4 inch notch in the underside of the cover sending shavings all thru the motor. I have no idea what else has been damaged as we left it alone as soon as we saw what was wrong so they can come over and look at it. Their initial reaction was they can clean it up and it would be fine, but I would never be able to trust this engine again after all the shavings going in even if there was no additional damage. Is there any way of salvaging the motor after such an event or should I demand they replace it? I hope they are stand up enough to take care of the problem without getting attorneys involved, but I will have to wait and see. I will keep you posted. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Man, what a kick in the a$$. Considering the cleaning they'll have to do, it may be better for all concerned to get a new engine and drop it in. Lots of time will be spent pulling down every part and making sure the metal pieces are cleaned out - It can be done, but there's a lot of labor in this and they will still be (or at least should be) liable for the rebuiilt engine. Don't forget about the parts that HAVE to be replaced such as piston rod and head bolts - not to mention a Timesert kit (unless they already did it). I hate it for ya, but wish you luck. Keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Oh man...The same thing happened recently to a buddy of mine that had a custom high performance V-6 rebuilt. Within the first 500 miles, the main nut on the crank came loose, boring it's way into the front timing plate. The entire motor had shavings pumped through it by the time he pulled over...on the way to my place! He had it towed to a professional shop, and had a documented disassembly and failure analysis performed. The engine builder (with a little pressure..) refunded the entire cost of the motor and labor. Don't back down. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Fenwick Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I donno man. If they couldn't do it right the first time, why would they be any better the second time. I would push hard for a new engine! Otherwise I want to watch them every step of the way. Good luck Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLAWS Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Very sorry to hear that. Let that be a lesson to all! Northstars should never be tampered with in the first place! It not as easy to work on as a 350 Chevy engine. Come on 300hp is more than enough for a fwd vehicle. My brother had a 93 STS. He saw a rebuild on Northstars for hot rods that was on the old caddy site a couple years back. After mechanics pleaded with him that it wasn't a good idea, he paid them in advance to do the engine and reinforced tranny. He even had them hook up nitrous. The goal was 450hp. Well when everything was done and taken to a dyno for tuning, the fuel flooded the oil and the engine seized up. He blames the mechanics for shoddy work and they blamed him for giving them hotrod specs not suitable for street use. $13K spent on the engine and tranny went down the drain and I haven't seen the car since 2001. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 It has nothing to do with the ease or difficulty of the job, it has to do with paying attention to detail. A simple thing as not torquing down a bolt is negligence. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLAWS Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Hey Mark, check out ebay... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...sspagename=WDVW or type in northstar engine. There a 99 northstar engine with under 1K mikes on it. Hopefully it is an STS and not an SLS or deville engine. Right now the bid is at $300+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 > A simple thing as not torquing down a bolt is negligence.< Precisely Mark. It was that argument, and that argument alone that got my friend a full refund plus labor. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I'm not going to spend a dime until I settle with them.I won't let them fix the car especially after they screwed it up the first time but they better reimburse me for labor and another motor. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I'm not going to spend a dime until I settle with them.I won't let them fix the car especially after they screwed it up the first time but they better reimburse me for labor and another motor. Maybe I should be more clear on my friend's dilema. He had the car towed to an independant shop for an unbiased analysis. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 That really sucks. If the shop that put it back together was at fault, I would make them buy you a new engine, especially after all that work you had done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Bob D, This place only put the motor back together as they are engine builders, I had some one else install it, so the car is not with them now and will never be with them. They have been around for more than 25 yrs and have a good reputation.They are coming over to where the car is now to inspect it for themselves. They want to take the filter off and cut it open. I don't know what that will prove as it is obvious the shavings went in the motor regardless if any thing was trapped in the filter. As a matter of fact it would be worse if nothing is in the filter which would mean everything is still floating around in the engine. I will not back down on this as it is very cut and dry as to who is at fault. No one is perfect and I understand that as a simple human error was made. They just have to admit it and step up to the plate and make it right. Unfortunately this is going to be a costly mistake for them. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I'm not so sure you'll find metal in the filter. It depends on how the failure progressed. Bigger pieces of metal will sit in the bottom of the oil pan or in pockets in the engine. Fine particulate will be suspended in the oil. If they're cutting the filter open, make sure they do it with a roller wheel cutter (similar to a pipe cutter or can opener) and not an abrasive blade. Have an independent person with you (e.g. a Certified mechanic would be great) when the filter is cut and examined. Keep the filter and place it in a sealed container. Take pictures of the efforts for your records. Advise the engine builders that you will be keeping a sample of the engine oil. Drain ALL the oil into a single container and take the sample in the presence of their representative (e.g. when they are opening the filter). Have an independent particulate analysis done if it seems that legal action might be necessary. Again, take pictures of the efforts for your records. If they refuse to allow the above, the slipperly slope is appearing and you need to line up some legal resources. Hopefully they have a good reputation and will work with you. It's in the best interest for you and them to resolve this through a WRITTEN agreement or binding arbitration - mainly because verbal agreements leave room for unrealistic expectations on both sides. If you take it to court, the legal fees will add up for both of you and this could be better placed toward a new engine. Good luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Stick to your guns, and take a lot of pictures! If you do have to go to court they will help you tremedously!!! Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Guru, How do you figure the shop that built the engine owes me nothing when it is there negligence of not tightening the caps down in the first place that has caused the problems? By the way the owner of the shop(that built the motor) came over and found that 2 bolts had broken off in the head. He was able to back one out and the other he tapped and put a helicoil in it. When he put a bolt in it bottomed out so he put 2 washers under the cap bolt and tightened the caps down. He DID NOT torque them at all and left before we started it up as we had to put the coil back on and stuff. And you would want me to trust this person ever again after seeing that kind of bandaid repair and STILL not torqueing the caps down? Needless to say when we started it back up, you can hear and feel thumping when you put your hand on the cover. Something is definetly bent or wrong. I am going back over there today to see what they are going to do about it. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Guru utilized a double negative, he said: "Not that the shop that built the engine doesn't owe you something for the misassembly" He is saying that the shop does owe you with that statement.. Personally, I don't think that a heli-coil is adequate in that location...is that how they fixed this, or is that from the original rebuild? I am a little confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Sorry Guru, I misread your post. Scotty, That is how they attemted to fix this current problem, and washers under the bolt to boot. I think he really screwed up as there were plenty of witnesses who watched in amazement at what he was doing. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I am sorry to hear this Mark, he of all people should understand that at 6,500 RPM this is not a good fix. He needs to get that bolt out and find out what is causing that vibration..it could very well be his "FIX" that is causing it. Good Luck to you with this, I was very excited along with you when you got it back on the road again... He needs to fix this if he is capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 If the cobblejockey mechanic used helicoils in the head bolt holes, that will be another source of problems.... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I have been sitting here thinking about this. Let me add that there is a 96 ETC in town that is for sale. The sign said new engine and tranny and that got my curiosity. I called the guy and he said the engine and tranny is new with 2,000 miles on it. The car has 80,000 miles. I asked him if the heads were off and he said the engine was totally rebuilt and he said it was at a machine shop (that is a good thing I thought). I asked him if the block was time-serted and he said, "yea whatever it needed". Yea whatever it needed was not a good answer to my liking.... Now if I wanted to buy that car I need to speak to the machine shop.... Obviously you would never buy a car like like this without knowing whether the engine was time-serted, plus I would need to speak to the time-serter...to hear it from him. I would discuss the tranny but I want to stay on thread. My point is, if you are going to rebuilt an engine as sophistocated as a NS engine, which many rebuilders shy away from, don't you think that they understand that a heli-coil is a mediocre repair at best? If you are up on things like this, don't you understand that there is a more sophistocated way to repair aluminum engines? Hell we know it and we are NOT even in the field of mechanics! Is this lazyness, stupidity or not wanting to put the extra time into doing it right as you are not making money on it? This subject infuriates me, mechanics doing things in a half-assed manner to 'get-over" on a customer thereby making more profit. Taking the chance that the car will be sold or that if there is a problem, you can BS out of it, "Oh you are overheating because a head bolt pulled out, these Cadillacs are known for that!". "I'll take it off your hands for X$! Its going to cost you $2000 more as the block needs to be "sent-out" we did the least expensive method for you originally... If a mechanic is NOT familiar with rebuilding a NS he should turn it down. In my industry, if I was asked to appraise a property type that I never did before, or that I was not experienced in, it is incumbant up me to consult with someone who has the experience and to get the knowledge to do that job... Its the same thing with the NS or any aluminum engine for that matter, acquire the knowledge to do it right.. The root of all of these problems is, "TIME IS MONEY". Many of you here who know me, know that when I am going to do a job on my car that I haven't done or have little experience in, I beat it to death for months, gaining knowledge on it, so that when I finally get the time or opportunity to FINALLY do the job, I breeze through it as I have already ironed out the kinks and questions in my mind for months... (I AM A SICK MAN I KNOW, ) F'n do it right, or don't F'n do it at all. The Heli-Coil is probably allowing the CAM bearing fixture to flex up and down at that location creating your noise...that is my guess. If that continues, it will break the other stud/bolt again. It sounds to me like you may be having difficulty with pulled bolts in the drive train, that would explain the broken bolts he found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95SLS Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 You keep that filter and the oil that comes out of it! Don't let them have it. It's proof. Even if it shows nothing. Keep it and the oil. They will have to buy an engine of the same, not new. Like used with near same miles and work done to it. So you will be back square one. Plus loss of use. I use blue and red threadlocker on things I do. Threads can be or have been over tourqe will stretch and the clamping force may not be the same as when new or never been over tourqed. If you use the threadlocker, it's highly unlikely to come out, but always will when you need it to. You might need heat to get it out with the red stuff. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbold1 Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 I'm sure this will start all sorts of controversy...but...There are only two choices...one, assume the motor is destroyed (which is the way everyone is leaning) or two, figure it is still OK, fix it and drive it and see. The worst that can happen is that it blows up....see choice one. My only concern with this would be that it might be more difficult to get that new engine later if you allow them to fix up this engine and then you take the car back and start driving it around. I would think that they would try to fight you on buying a new engine if they spend much time (money) working on the current engine. It would be more economical for them to just buy the new engine and be done with it. Really, even if the current engine is more or less okay you will likely notice every little sound out of it now and you'll want to believe that the engine is no good. In which case you'll be wanting that new engine. I know if it were me I would probably be paranoid about that engine from here on out. I would feel much better with a new one. I guess which way you need to go with this depends quite a bit on what it will take to give you peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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