Possibly Looking for a DHS

[JasonA]

As you guys know (or many of you, from WAY back), I had a '97 SLS that I had bonded with, almost down to a molecular level. I was "one" with that car; it was such a comfortable cruiser. I sold it to my brother (and he is still enjoying it) in favor of a super-clean 2001 STS with 55k miles (last winter). It's a wonderful car, clean in every way, and very quick on the pedal. But I've never really bonded with it. It doesn't get the fuel economy my SLS got (it's obviously got the 300-horse engine and 3.71 gears) and the ride is stiffer than I like.

So I think I may go back to looking for what I originally set out for, a DHS. I want the DHS because it's got the analog gauges that I like, but it's also got the 275-horse powertrain, which I also generally prefer. It's got to be clothed in White Diamond, but other than that, I don't know a WHOLE heckuva lot about these cars.

For example, they all came with the chrome wheels, yes? They all had the electric rear sunshade, yes? I assume a sunroof was optional (I will prefer that)? What years did they make them? Should I assume the whole 2000-2005 run? I'm primarily looking at 2003-2005 models, but if they also made them in 2000-2002, and those are otherwise the same cars, I will consider one with low miles. Any big changes...like was Stabili-Trak made available any of these years, or did Navigation become standard/available one year, etc? Or is any 2000-2005 DHS essentially the same car, minus the small options like color? Did they all have heated seats? Heated and cooled seats? I had a 2005 loaner DeVille once that had the heated AND cooled seats, and it was nice. Was that package standard on the DHS?

Any advice anyone could give me on the DHS models is most appreciated.

As part of this, I'd need to sell my STS, but fortunately, not necessarily on the same timeframe (I have another vehicle that I drive daily), so my 2001 STS would be for sale. NADA trade on it is about $9k, and KBB private party in excellent condition (which it is) is $11.2k. If selling myself, I'd look to split those numbers, or right at about $10k. If anyone is interested, please let me know. But primarily, I'm just looking for information on the DHS models right now. If I happen to sell the STS before I buy the DHS, that's icing on the cake.

Thanks.

[JimD]

For example, they all came with the chrome wheels, yes?

No. Base wheel can be polished aluminum; depends on year.

They all had the electric rear sunshade, yes?

No. Optional on some years.

Any big changes...like was Stabili-Trak made available any of these years

Stablitrak is standard equipment on all Cadillac passenger cars since it was introduced.

did Navigation become standard/available one year, etc?

Navigation is an option.

Or is any 2000-2005 DHS essentially the same car

Yes. Basically the chassis for all 3 models; Deville, DHS, DTS is unchanged from 2000 to 2005.

Heated and cooled seats?

I don't remember what year the cooled front bucket seats were introduced but my '04 DTS has it. And I'm uncertain if the front bench seat can be cooled.

[JasonA]

Thanks Jim.

Stabili-Trak has not been standard since it was introduced. It was first available during the '97 model year, but was available only on cars with the active suspensions. IE: base DeVille and Eldorado and SLS models did not have it (though the '97 SLS did have an active suspension). But regardless, what you're saying is that all '00+ DeVilles have Stabili-Trak?

The '05 DeVille I rented had the (very comfortable) bench, with heated and cooled seats on both sides. I'm a larger guy, and that bench seat, even though it's really a 40/20/40 with individual "bucket" seats, was more comfortable than the seats in my STS. Cooled seats will be a big plus, and I'll be sure to look for them.

[JasonA]

Just to follow-up some.

It appears that I'm looking for a 2004-2005 DHS. A few items came around in 2004 which makes the 2004-2005 models particularly interesting to me. Seat cooling became available (and standard on DHS) for 2004, and that package comes with heated/cooled front seats, heated steering wheel, and heated outboard rear seats. The seat heaters aren't of big interest to me, but the seat coolers are. Those worked particularly well on that '05 loaner I had. That car also had a black interior (yuck!), so those leather seats got particularly hot in the North Carolina sun.

2004 also brought the change (from what I can glean) from White Diamond to White Lightning, which is a favorable change to me. I just love the White Diamond paint, and like the White Lightning just as much. I've only noticed the White Lightning in person on 06+ DTSes, and it's absolutely stunning on those models. Jim, is your '04 DTS "White Lightning" vs. "White Diamond"? I think it's a stunning color, and is my ONLY color choice.

2004 also brought the yet-again-revised Northstar head bolt spec. It was changed in 2000 and revised again at least once thereafter, and I know that 2004 brought a non-trivial change (to the pitch and length I think). I've not had head bolt problems with either of my Northstars, but I figure that ANY extra measure of safety is one worth prioritizing.

Optional on the DHS was a "Safety and Security" package, which included the Homelink, the StabiliTrak, and rear obstacle detection. Most DHSes that I've seen must have that option, because almost all have the "eyes" in the rear bumper. Also optional (on all trims) was the Night Vision package, and I saw one of those cars on the i-net. It was beautiful, had the Night Vision, the moonroof, and navigation, etc. It was a loaded beauty. And it appears that the DHS models all had the power rear sunshade. I like that, if only for the "gimmick" factor. They took away the power trunk pull-down, so I need something to impress the co-workers.

From what I can tell, 2004 and 2005 were virtual twins, in terms of options and content. I don't see too many 2005 DeVilles, let alone DHSes. Most of them seem to be either base or DTS models. Lots of "Raven Black" DTSes for sale.

[JimD]

Mine is White Lightning; I wouldn't have any other color. Expensive paint to repair.

If/when you find one, be sure to checkout the Onstar operation; GM was still installing analog-only hardware in '04 so you will want to find a car that has been upgraded or you will face that up-front cost also.

[Texas Jim]

My 2006 DTS is also White Lightning. I really like it.

I have had many complements on it.

I think the 2005 has a smoother ride then the 2006, but that may be all in my head.

The 2006 is the newer body style.

[JasonA]

My '01 has analog On Star, and I (obviously) never use it. It's not really that much of a concern to me. I don't really care whether it's analog or digital. I didn't think you could upgrade from one to the other. Or was that just for certain years?

Jim, your '98 STS is White Diamond, yes? From what I've noticed, the White Diamond is a slightly creamier/milkier color, and the White Lightning is just a little bit brighter and a "crisper" white. Is that your assessment as well?

My '01 had its bumper scuffed by another car in a parking lot, and the body shop did an incredible job with it. You can't tell that it was repaired at all. The entire bumper cover was replaced and repainted, and you can't tell anything was done. The color was matched very well. Maybe they HAD to do the replacement of the entire piece, because repair is so difficult. Either way, they applied it beautifully -- it blends 100%.

[JimD]

My '01 has analog On Star, and I (obviously) never use it. It's not really that much of a concern to me. I don't really care whether it's analog or digital. I didn't think you could upgrade from one to the other. Or was that just for certain years?

Some years can be upgraded and '04 is one of them. My DTS was delivered with analog only OnStar and has since been upgraded to current technology.

There seems to be no gray area concerning the cost effectiveness of OnStar; some folks are willing to pay the freight and others don't see any advantage over an everyday cellular phone.

Jim, your '98 STS is White Diamond, yes? From what I've noticed, the White Diamond is a slightly creamier/milkier color, and the White Lightning is just a little bit brighter and a "crisper" white. Is that your assessment as well?

I agree. At one point I had a side-by-side picture of the '98 and the '04 but I can't locate the file. The two colors are certainly different.

My '01 had its bumper scuffed by another car in a parking lot, and the body shop did an incredible job with it. You can't tell that it was repaired at all. The entire bumper cover was replaced and repainted, and you can't tell anything was done. The color was matched very well. Maybe they HAD to do the replacement of the entire piece, because repair is so difficult. Either way, they applied it beautifully -- it blends 100%.

In April, 2007 I decided it was time to 'clean up' the front bumper cover on the '98 (you can imagine what it looked like after 152,xxx miles and nine plus years). I was lucky enough to live close to the dealer body shop that had the employee with the skills, experience, and patience to repair the considerable damage. Painting was another issue but they got a perfect match on the second try.

[JasonA]

Jim, if you run across the photo of the two cars together, I would very much appreciate you sending me a copy, or posting it here. I'm trying to describe to my wife the differences (she really likes the White Diamond of our '01 STS).

Does Cadillac sell a bottle of touch-up paint for White Diamond? My '01 just has some very small stone dings in the front bumper cover, and I'd like to simply fill those in with a color that'll closely match the White Diamond. I understand it obviously won't be the "tri coat" process that the factory underwent, but it'd at least clean up the 1 or 2 stone dings I have on there.

[JimD]

Does Cadillac sell a bottle of touch-up paint for White Diamond? My '01 just has some very small stone dings in the front bumper cover, and I'd like to simply fill those in with a color that'll closely match the White Diamond. I understand it obviously won't be the "tri coat" process that the factory underwent, but it'd at least clean up the 1 or 2 stone dings I have on there.

Dupli Color might have a match for the base coat and they package clear coat in a spray can.

The dealer body shop I used mixes the base coat color in the shop. The shop manager gave me a small bottle of the paint when I picked up the car (I was able to repair a stone chip on the roof!). Soooo - make the dealer body shop manager your new best friend.

[Ranger]

The difference between white diamond & white lightening is white diamond is a pearl white. White lightening is an iridescent white. Both are nice and my only choice.

GM does sell the touch up bottle. I have one and from what I can tell it is the tint coat. I think you might have better luck using a base coat, then the tint coat they sell over it.

[JasonA]

Thanks guys.

So what is the paint process with these two paints. Is a base coat laid down first, then a tint coat, then a clear coat? Is that why they call it a "tri-coat" paint? I suppose by that definition, even standard base coat/clear coat finishes are a "dual-coat" paint process. Our Town & Country is clothed in "Cognac Crystal Pearl", but I think it's best described as a iridescent paint. It can look like a deep garnet in some lights, or downright orange/copper in others. It's a striking color, and did cost extra from the factory. But Chrysler doesn't market it as a "tri-coat" paint or anything like that, as Cadillac did with White Lightning.

[growe3]

Just thought I'd "chime" in on this thread.

I have 93 STS's, love em. Got plenty of power and great control. Last year I decided as these two were getting a lot of mileage, I would start looking around for a replacement car.

After much searching I decided to go with the 2004 DTS. This is a great car. Almost all of the bells and whistles, no navigation or HUD, but I don't miss them. I think there is little real difference between it and the DLS, just a slightly different engine tune as you are aware.

The seat heating and cooling, are very nice features, as are the Driver Program memory items.

I preferred the black over some of the other colors, although it can be a nuisance to keep clean, it looks pretty sleek. I swapped out the chrome badges all around for gold, and they look much nicer; I think.

The 2004 DTS ride is a great improvement over my STS's. Much smoother, and handles very well. The STS's will definitely leave the DTS in the dust on winding roads, or other hard maneuvers. But again the DTS was designed more for in town and freeway driving; and it does both very well. The mileage is very similar to the STS's, about 1 MPG better, on average.

Whatever the color, I think you will really like the DLS.

-George

[Ranger]

Thanks guys.

So what is the paint process with these two paints. Is a base coat laid down first, then a tint coat, then a clear coat? Is that why they call it a "tri-coat" paint? I suppose by that definition, even standard base coat/clear coat finishes are a "dual-coat" paint process. Our Town & Country is clothed in "Cognac Crystal Pearl", but I think it's best described as a iridescent paint. It can look like a deep garnet in some lights, or downright orange/copper in others. It's a striking color, and did cost extra from the factory. But Chrysler doesn't market it as a "tri-coat" paint or anything like that, as Cadillac did with White Lightning.

You got it Jason. Base/Tint/Clear = Tricoat. The others are listed as BC/CC (Base Coat/Clear Coat)

BTW. I finally responded to your email. Lost power for a day and a half so I had no computer, or anything else for that matter.

[JasonA]

I'm also looking at 2003 models. It appears that the turn signal chevrons in the side mirrors appeared sometime during the 2003 model year. Ranger, yours have these? I've seen photos of 2003s on the i-net with them, but some were also without. I don't get the cooled seats with the 2003 model year, but everything else looks just about the same. 2004s and 2005s are awfully hard to find, and they're a touch out of my price range for a low miles car as well (I need to stay south of $20k). 2003 seemed to be the most "prolific" year for DHS models. The only mandatory option for me is moonroof. Fortunately, I don't plan to buy for a short while anyway.

I think I'll go to a local Buick dealer at lunch tomorrow and drive one of their '04 DTSes. They've got two on the lot, neither being White Lightning. Most of my mission is making sure, for lack of better terms, that a DTS is "not" what I want. Most of what I don't care for about my STS is the L37 drivetrain. Down on low-end torque and too "revvy". My '97 SLS had a very sharp low-end throttle response that I really enjoyed, and that I hope to get back with an LD8-powered DeVille. I think that with the DTS being even heavier than my '01 STS, I won't be any more pleased with that engine than I am with the one in mine. But I need to drive one to make sure I won't make a $20,000 mistake.

[Ranger]

Yes my '03 has the LED turn signal chevrons in the mirrors. I thought that was standard.

[JasonA]

I don't think they were optional, but for some reason, I think they were a mid-year change in '03. That is, not all '03s have them. I'll have to check it out further as I look around.

[JasonA]

I drove an '04 DTS today at lunch with 42,xxx miles. It drove nice, but not a whole heckuva lot different from my STS. What I was particularly interested in seeing was how the engine responded to throttle input. It may have been a touch spritelier than mine, but that L37 still has the characteristics of a turbo-charged engine in that it has to "spool up" a bit before pushing you back in the seat. It was a refined car, and pretty comfortable, but alas, not for me. The seats were pretty similar to those in my STS. Relatively firm and a touch flat. I really liked the seats in both DeVilles that I've driven before, so I'm very sure now that a DHS is what I'm after.

[JasonA]

Got two cars on my short list.

A 2003 DHS is my "safety car" (think safety school, for kids looking at colleges). It's a 1-owner from North Carolina, and it's at the dealership where I bought my 2001 STS. I have an appointment to look at it on Saturday. The car's been there for quite a while. Checking the Vehicle Inquiry System at my local dealership, it's had some warranty work, including some transmission work (forward/coast clutch and drive sprocket), and a new steering rack. Overall, it looks to be in great shape. 48,000 miles. Not certified, though if it were, the warranty would be in force through 4/23/09, so I'll ask about it. They're asking $16,950, which is close to NADA retail.

A 2004 DHS is my "dream car". It's a 2-owner from North Carolina (first was a lease). It's absolutely loaded, with Night Vision, moon roof, navigation system, the works. It's got 61,000 miles, and a check from VIS indicates VERY little warranty work done. Just a steering rack and a new throttle body (maybe as part of a water crossover repair?). This car is also certified, through 11/2009. It's at an independent dealer, so I'm not expecting much as a trade for my STS, and I probably won't trade the STS in on the DHS if I go this route. I still plan to have my STS appraised at CarMax. They gave us more than trade value for our old Grand Caravan when we sold it to them, so we'll see what they offer on the STS. This DHS is offered moderately south of blue book, at $15,990. Sounds like an awfully good deal, but I'll see in person; I'm going today after work. It checks out good via Experian, and the warranty work summary looks great. If the interior/exterior are as good as this car is on paper, I think it'll be mine.

I'll report back.

[Texas Jim]

Both of those sound good...

ESPECIALLY the 2004.

[JasonA]

Well I was thoroughly insulted at CarMax yesterday when I had them appraise my STS. NADA clean trade is over $9000. They offered me $2500, and said it was because the Northstar engine is known to leak and folks aren't looking for V-8 cars right now. Never mind that they have a few DeVilles out on the lot proudly displaying asking prices of $14-16k.

So I didn't go look at the '04 last night. I figured if CarMax wasn't going to even offer me $5k for it, this small and independent dealer wouldn't offer much over $5k either. So I called Bill Black Cadillac (where the '03 is located) and tried to work out a deal with him. He's got his DHS listed at pretty close to full NADA retail (which is $16,450). If he gives me full NADA trade for mine, I can give him full NADA retail for his. He's looking at "black book", which is apparently a REALLY bottom-dollar wholesale value. He said he wasn't seeing anything close to $9k for mine. I told him I just gave them $13,400 for this car last year (yes, bought from their dealership). He said he'll have to talk to his used car manager and he'd call me this morning. We'll see. Bottom line, if he gives me $9k for mine, and I give them $16.5k for theirs, that's a difference of $7500, and right where my budget is. If he can only give $5k for mine, I'll offer them $11.5k for theirs. I doubt they'll take that, but I don't see how they can expect me to give them full value for theirs when they won't give me full value for mine.

So...if the deal doesn't work out for now, it doesn't work out. I'll keep the STS, and maybe run it on Craigslist or something and see if it sells. Like I said before, I'm not really in any HURRY to change vehicles...and it looks like I won't get near even NADA trade for mine from a dealership, so I guess that means I'll have to sell it myself first. No biggie. I'll letcha all know what Bill Black calls back with today.

[Texas Jim]

Why not go ahead and call the independent dealer (and go look at) the 2004 that you really want?

Wont hurt anything. You never know what kind of deal he will offer, if you don't talk to him or what he actually HAS IN the 2004. If you don't ... you will never know what he might do.

He may be in the 2004 cheap enough that he can offer you more for your car and still come out ok. You never know how much he actually has in it.

Don't be afraid to make a ridiculas low offer.

The worst thing they can say is "NO" and it at least gives you a starting point to begin negotiations.

I kinda enjoy horse trading sometimes.

Especially if it is just something I WANT.. not something I HAVE TO have.

Since you have a certain budget you want to stay within... and you seem to already be aware of fair prices.... maybe your best tactic is to talk "DIFFERENCE" ... not actual prices of yours vs theirs.

Then if you can come to an agreement on the DIFFERENCE that you have to pay .. to make both of you happy.... WIN WIN.

[JasonA]

That's a good point, Jim, regarding talking "difference" rather than empirical "prices". The reason I didn't go see the '04 yesterday is it's 2 hours away and it was already getting late after I wasted 2 hours at CarMax, so I felt rushed, and was put aback by the offer CarMax made. I also didn't want to spend the $100 in gas to drive down there only to have to drive back. But like you said, and like I began to realize last night after looking at numbers, the "difference" is what matters most, at least in terms of my budget. That said, I don't really want to take a bath on my STS, just to get into something else cheap that may be a bigger risk than it's worth. So I just have to balance those factors out. If Bill Black scoffs at my deal today, I may just spend the time and go down to Wilmington and look at the '04 this evening, and see what they'd give for my STS. But, like I said earlier, if it's not meant to be right now, it's not meant to be, and I don't want to "force" a deal that isn't there.

[Texas Jim]

I would have been more than .. put aback... I would have been a combination of Pi$$ed and insulted and walked out. BTDT.

Why not give the guy that has the '04 a call and feel him out over the phone....

MAYBE get SOME idea of what he may do. Just to see if it is worth it for you to make the drive.

Point out to him where you are at... and you don't want to waste both your time and his time, driving down there if there is NO CHANCE AT ALL to make a deal.

Just an idea......

[JasonA]

I told CarMax that their offer was flat insulting. And I did walk out.

Bill Black just called back and said they could offer as much as $5500 for my STS, but that's as high as they could go, and the $16,900 was as low as they could go on the DHS. I said they can't expect full value for theirs and low-ball me on mine, so I guess this deal wouldn't work out. There is a remark on the Experian report that this '03 DHS was reported at auction in March, but Bill Black's had it since December. It sounds ot me like they've got too much in this car (ie, probably gave too much for it on trade back in December). Either that or they're just not in a dealing mood right now. Oh well.

I will call the guy in Wilmington and see what he says. I'm pretty sure there's almost no chance of making the deal on trade, but it's certainly at least worth a call. This is a bit of a wake-up call for me. Maybe it's just the economy, but the NADA and KBB trade-in values appear to be WAY off. NADA says $9025 for my car, and KBB says $8800. Both are consistent with each other. Black book is apparently all dealers are willing to do. That's fine, but I'd rather NADA/KBB be closer to actual trade values. Their trade values are obviously VERY theoretical, or very out-dated.