Trans bug

[jhall]

Hi all,

It's been a while.......

My wife's 2002 Deville has popped the 0741 tranny code two times in the last three weeks or so.

I reset the code the first time after checking fluid levels and lines. No problems until yesterday.

The code came back, so I did the checks again and found that the fluid is foaming. This can be seen in the trans fluid fill opening with a flashlight.

The fluid level falls into the proper range when the engine is at temp and the car drives just fine. My wife mentioned a bump, but was not sure if it was the road, or if it happened before the DIC SES light came on. So much for interrogating her................

I checked the board and saw that others have the same bug in other model years - some continue to drive since their car operates OK.

The car has less than 30K, so I'm not sure the scavenger screens or the main filter would need changing / cleaning. Could this be a sticking valve? I plan to pull the pan and change the fluid and drive it until something worse shows up.

Comments appreciated.

[BodybyFisher]

Document ID# 1542894

2002 Cadillac DeVille

Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On, Diganostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0741, Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Excessive Slip, Transaxle Chuggle, Slip/Surge (Inspect/Replace Internal Transaxle Components) #04-07-30-034 - (Aug 6, 2004)

Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On, Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0741, Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Excessive Slip, Transaxle Chuggle, Slip/Surge (Inspect and/or Replace Various Internal Transaxle Components)

1998-2002 Cadillac Eldorado

1998-2004 Cadillac Seville

1999-2004 Cadillac DeVille

2000-2003 Oldsmobile Aurora

with 4T80-E Auto Transaxle (RPO MH1)

Condition

Some customer may comment on the SES light on and a chuggle or surge. Diagnostics may show excessive TCC slip speed and DTC P0741 will be current code stored.

Cause

Seal damage may allow the TCC apply fluid to leak into the channel plate, causing excessive TCC slippage under certain conditions, eventually causing no TCC apply.

TCC may have partial apply fluid pressure or no apply fluid pressure. If excessive slip speed is noted and condition/cause cannot be corrected by using DTC P0741 diagnostic chart, suspect worn seals from slippage of the drive sprocket bearing inner race on the drive sprocket.

Correction

DO THIS

Repair the transaxle

DON'T DO THIS

DO NOT replace the complete transaxle assembly

Follow the diagnostic and repair procedure below to repair this condition.

1. Remove the transaxle from the vehicle. Refer to the appropriate Service Information for transaxle removal procedure.

2. Remove the torque converter.

3. Install the transaxle to holding fixture.

4. Remove the transaxle side cover, upper valve body and case cover.

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns.

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for uneven wear patterns. The wear patterns will be evident by a uneven wear pattern of the inner diameter white seal surface as shown in the two above illustrations.

Inspect the two case cover seals (34 and 35) for splits/tears and or flat spots.

Inspect the support drive socket (400) for wear on the bearing race.

Inspect the case cover (33) for wear or damage due to the drive sprocket bearing spinning in the bore.

Important

During the tear down inspection, pay particular attention to seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) for wear or damage.

Seals (34, 35, 409 and 412) are part of Gasket Kit, P/N 24221398, and do not need to be ordered separately.

Replace the Torque Converter when servicing a vehicle with this condition.

Flush the transaxle cooler with Transflow cooler flushing tool, J 45096. Refer to Service Bulletins:

Info - Automatic Transmission Oil Cooler Flush and Flow Test Essential Tool J 45096, TransFlow #02-07-30-052

Transmission Cooling System Service Tool J 45096 - Transflow Information #03-07-30-002.

Replace only the necessary internal transaxle components per the tear down inspection. See the parts list below.

*****************************************************************************

Document ID# 1510386

2002 Cadillac DeVille

4T80E MH1 SES Light On DTC P0741 ( TCC Stuck Off ) - kw apply converter fluid pressure shift slip torque transmission valve #PI02103 - (May 17, 2004)

4T80E MH1 SES Light On DTC P0741 (TCC Stuck Off)

.

When servicing the vehicle with the VIN you entered, the following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the described symptoms.

Condition/Concern:

Condition: Customer may complain of SES light on, SES light on and chuggle or surge. Diagnostics may show excessive TCC slip speed and DTC P0741 will be current code stored.

Cause: Excessive TCC Slip Speed, TCC may have partial apply fluid pressure or no apply fluid pressure. If excessive slip speed noted and condition/cause cannot be diagnosed by using DTC P0741 diagnostic chart, suspect worn seals from slippage of the drive sprocket bearing inner race on the drive sprocket.

Recommendation/Instructions:

Correction: The transmission must be removed from the vehicle (SI reference for trans removal). Remove the side cover, upper valve body, case cover, drive chain, drive and driven gear. Inspect the drive sprocket support (Item 400) for wear on the outer radius. Inspect the following seals for wear;

#034 ........................ p/n 24201992 .......Seal, Case cover to drive sprocket

#035 ........................ p/n 24201991 .......Seal, Case cover to turbine shaft

The wear pattern will be evidenced by an uneven appearance of the inner diameter white seal surface, in some instances the inner seal may be torn away from the seal shell (Figures 2 thru 4, and 7) or the seal surface may be uneven in appearance. Compare a new seal (Figure 6) versus the installed seal (Figures 2 thru 4 and 7). The white seal surface should be an even width around the inner diameter (Figures 8/9). Seal damage will allow TCC apply fluid to drain into the channel plate, causing excessive slippage of the TCC under certain load conditions and eventually cause no TCC apply.

In addition the following seals should be replaced.

#409 ........................ p/n 08679881 .......Drive sprocket oil seal

#412 ........................ p/n 08686052 .......Seal, turbine shaft O-Ring

Please follow this diagnosis process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed. If these steps do not resolve the condition, please contact GM TAC for further diagnostic assistance. This diagnostic approach was developed for the vehicle with the VIN you entered and should not be automatically be used for other vehicles with similar symptoms.

Models:

(1999-2003 Oldsmobile Aurora) and (1999-2004 Cadillac Deville) and (1999-2004 Cadillac Seville)

[jhall]

Thanks BBF,

I assume the documents are the instructions to the technicians and are not service bulletins regarding any recalls or no-charge repairs????

Looks like I'm nailed since the car is just over 30K and the warranty expired this last July.

[BodybyFisher]

Yes these two documents are related to diagnosis. The symptom is outlined at the top of each. They are not related to recalls. I think I read where it would be covered under warranty, not that that helps you.

In both instances it appears to be related to a case cover seal. I wonder if a seal leaking under pressure could cause the fluid to foam?

I have the photos from the above documents if you want me to post them I will as soon as I can.

[epricedright]

Was the tranny ever overfilled? Overfilling can cause the fluid to aerate and foam. Low fluid level can cause foaming as well. I would do as you stated and pick up a tranny service kit, drop the pan to inspect and change the fluid.

[Cadillac Jim]

Ask your dealer to look at it and advise as to whether it is covered by warranty. Drivetrain warranty may be 50,000 miles.

[BodybyFisher]

Yes these two documents are related to diagnosis. The symptom is outlined at the top of each. They are not related to recalls. I think I read where it would be covered under warranty, not that that helps you.

In both instances it appears to be related to a case cover seal. I wonder if a seal leaking under pressure could cause the fluid to foam?

I have the photos from the above documents if you want me to post them I will as soon as I can.

My contributing membership expired. The last sentence I posted above is a serious run on sentence that is embarrising Anyway, since my contributing membership expired, I am not able to edit it...to fix it... This is a big reason to contribute, if you post something dumb, you can always go back and correct it...

[steve6]

I got this f'ing code the other day on my caddy as well, reminds me why I shoulda bought a lexus

[jhall]

BBF,

I pulled the service docs from the web and they have the pictures, so no problem. I appreciate your effort.

Jims_97_ETC

I plan to talk with the dealer. I don't expect much give on their part even though the milage is less than 50K. The warranty is 50K/4 years and I'm about 10 months over the 4 year date.

I reset the code and drove it today. Not a single glitch, so I'll change the fluid and then talk with the dealer about repair - and continue to drive it until the code pops up more often.

From what I read in the Helms, the TCC lock-up is not an issue f the trans is not overheating (it's not), so at worse, I could get to a point where the code occurs more often. At that point I'll probably have it fixed.

Steve6

Man, I was PO'd at first when the code popped the second time, but then I thought about the problems I had at 30K and 50K miles with the 1970's - 1980's junk that was being pushed out of Detroit. I

I'm not saying that a rebuild on a tranny at 30K is acceptable, but once in a while you step in it.

Oh - I can tell you as a past owner of German and Japanese vehicles, that these have their own problems too and none of them had the ride or the durability of the Caddy's I own (three in fact - a '97 a 2000 and a 2002 Deville).

The engine and drivetrain designs are darn good. I've been into the N* right down to the crank and piston rods and the design is significantly better than anything I've seen in many years. While it does bother me to toss potentially $3K or so toward a prematurely failed tranny, I'll still have a better designed vehicle than the foreign dealers offer. BTW - I have seen some great foreign cars in my global travels, but these are not sold in the U.S.

[BodybyFisher]

BBF,

I pulled the service docs from the web and they have the pictures, so no problem. I appreciate your effort.

Jims_97_ETC

I plan to talk with the dealer. I don't expect much give on their part even though the milage is less than 50K. The warranty is 50K/4 years and I'm about 10 months over the 4 year date.

I reset the code and drove it today. Not a single glitch, so I'll change the fluid and then talk with the dealer about repair - and continue to drive it until the code pops up more often.

From what I read in the Helms, the TCC lock-up is not an issue f the trans is not overheating (it's not), so at worse, I could get to a point where the code occurs more often. At that point I'll probably have it fixed.

Steve6

Man, I was PO'd at first when the code popped the second time, but then I thought about the problems I had at 30K and 50K miles with the 1970's - 1980's junk that was being pushed out of Detroit. I

I'm not saying that a rebuild on a tranny at 30K is acceptable, but once in a while you step in it.

Oh - I can tell you as a past owner of German and Japanese vehicles, that these have their own problems too and none of them had the ride or the durability of the Caddy's I own (three in fact - a '97 a 2000 and a 2002 Deville).

The engine and drivetrain designs are darn good. I've been into the N* right down to the crank and piston rods and the design is significantly better than anything I've seen in many years. While it does bother me to toss potentially $3K or so toward a prematurely failed tranny, I'll still have a better designed vehicle than the foreign dealers offer. BTW - I have seen some great foreign cars in my global travels, but these are not sold in the U.S.

Remember it says to repair the transmission NOT ot REPLACE it, if this is a seal, they are aware of the failure and this does not require replacement

[jhall]

BBF,

Yeah. Got that. I suspect the seal.

Wish I had the means to drop the cradle. After pulling the '97 Devill engine out from the top, I don't have the time or the inclination to get up to my elbows in this kind of repair.

I'll keep everyone updated on what happens.

Sitting in London Gatwick airport waiting for a connect to Amsterdam, so don't think I've lost my mind posting this late!!

[Catch Me]

Thanks BBF,

I assume the documents are the instructions to the technicians and are not service bulletins regarding any recalls or no-charge repairs????

Looks like I'm nailed since the car is just over 30K and the warranty expired this last July.

Thirty thousand miles is nothing on one of these transmissions. It really shouldn't even need service with that low of mileage.

Was any after market fluids or additives added to the fluid that you know of? If the incorrect fluid was added it CAN cause the trans to act strange.

If you have added fluid and are not sure if it was the same type as the fluid in the trans already try servicing the trans in a maner that will replace all the fluid so all the fluid is of the same type.

Many feel flushing the system with a flushing machine works best for this. I am not one that believes this. IMO it is best if the trans is used to pump fresh fluid into it as the old fluid is pumped out.

I do agree the drive train should still by under warranty. I believe that thirty six thousand miles is the least amount of miles a new car has on the drive train warranty. But you may run into problems with the three year part of the warranty if that is what the warranty was for. (3/36)

Best of luck.

[jhall]

As far as I am aware, the fluid is the original and no additives were introduced.

I know the guy who sold the car to us and all the service records show regular maintenance from the dealer.

There has been no overfill or underfill as best I can tell. Before we bough the car, it spent most of its time under a covered roof with minimal driving.

I'll know more once I talk to the dealer and change the fluid.

Thanks very much for the input.