AliRaza Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Guys, Please help me out here. My 97 Seville SLS got overheated yesterday. It was a cool day yesterday in Houston close to feezing and I believe since I was out of town and took the car out after a long time, the coolant was low. I drove about good 20 miles on the highway when I saw the temperature gauge and it was almost in the red zone. I pulled the car on side and by that time it reached the H on the readout. I let it cool, put in new coolant (Two and a half bottles) and then got back home. Temperature was a bit higher than the middle bar. Coolant still coming out of the overflow pipe. Drove around in the neighbor hood after that for two three minutes and opened the cap of the reservoir and after a while it starts spitting coolant off from the reservoir opening. Car is still getting hot after driving for five to six minutes. IS it a thermostat? Did I screw the engine up? I think engine is still fine but the overheating problem is still there. Should I remove the thermostat to check the circulation first and then install a new one after pointing the problem?? Dont have money for major repair and love my car. I would appreciate any help Thanks Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 I'd start with the thermostat. It's the easiest and cheapest thing to do at this point, be sure to check all drive belts and pulleys. The water pump belt tensioner (if this is a NS) can stick, allowing the water pump drive belt to slip. It's really hard to tell anything from your post. If you take the pressure cap off of a hot engine it will certainly begin to boil, particularly if the coolant concentration is low. Now, if you have a cold engine, COMPLETELY full of coolant (no air pockets or bubbles) and it starts to bubble or spit coolant within the first minute....THEN you have a problem. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 I tried the cold engine startup as you suggested and the water is not boiling back. I chaged teh thermostat and one of my mechanic friend came in and tested for engine block an that came out ok as well. No hydrocarbon reading in that tester. Now the only thing that my mechanic friend said is that it has air lock and that has to be bleeded out. Also inspected the water pump and that pulley is working fine too. HE didnt know how to take the air out. IF you or anyone can please let me know how to take the airlock out of the system, it will be a great help. Again thanks for all this help and this is a great place to be. I really learned a lot from here. Regards Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loucar1 Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 first thing I would do is check the water pump belt and make sure it's turning the pump. Next check / replace the stat. Lou 94 Seville STS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 removed by user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Didtn get eh WOT run to red line??? I know I must be acting dumb here guys.... Also Do I have to wait unti the engine gets all cold before adding teh new coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 That's OK. Most of us been around a few years and forget about newcomers. WOT means Wide Open Throttle. I don't really think there is any "magic" to getting the air out of your system. The design is such that air is allowed to escape to the resevoir tank through the small line "Teed" into the top bypass hose. Make sure that THAT hose is open and not plugged with ginger root, Er I mean, Bars Leak, or something. And while I'm on the subject, if the thing calms down, make sure you drain the coolant one more time and add the sealant (either the tabs from the dealer or Bar's Leak Powder) to the LOWER RADIATOR HOSE.....and nowhere else. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Johny, Thanks a million. Will try this tomorrow morning. Thanks God its a holiday here tomorrow. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 OK Guys, Now I am ery worried. I filled the coolant, increase teh rev to 3000 rpm multiple times, drove around in 2nd gear to keep teh rev above 3000 rpm. I went from my house to a gas station. Probably two to three miles, and the temperature was almost near the red zone. How difficult is it to get rid of the air pocket? Since I checked the air pump, the engine block and changed teh thermostat, what else could be the reason? The hose in front of teh radiator had pressure when I checked. So the circulation is getting complete somehow. I am not sure. The day is passing by and tomorrow is another working day. Please help!!!! Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted February 16, 2004 Report Share Posted February 16, 2004 Aliraza Read Bills post follow these steps Bill posted under WOT QUOTE (AliRaza @ Feb 16 2004, 05:32 AM) I am planning to use WOT to clear the air block from my cooling system in NS 436 Seville 97? Any more suggestions. Johny helped me good on that before. I am really surprised how difficult it is to remove that air block. We tried today to get it out by running it ideal and removing the small hoze coming out of the engine block. The coolant was coming with a purr, indicating air in it. Not a smooth flow of coolant. That triggers the air block idea by my mechanic friend. Johny told me to do WOT and also surge the engine to atleast 3000rpm number of times to get the air out of the cooling system any more suggestinos before i do it tomorrow morning? If you are having a cooling problem and suspect some sort of air blockage about the LAST thing you want to do is to take it out and run it hard at WOT. Taking the small vapor vent hose off at the block was the correct thing to do. The fact that coolant comes out of it when the engine is idling is good. Now, what you want to do is to make sure that the hose is unrestricted on the path to the pressurized surge tank. Take the hose off at the surge tank fitting and start the engine and see if coolant still pours out of the small hose while idling. That small hose from the block goes thru the throttle body heater plate and then to the pressurized surge tank. If the hose is blocked somewhere along the line then it will not allow the vapor to vent and the engine will overheat. Take the hose off at the surge tank, make sure that coolant flows from it when the engine is running and make sure that the nipple on the surge tank is clean and unrestricted. The engine is designed to be self purging of any air so you should not have to take ANY drastic measures to eliminate any air after draining and refilling or anything. Did you drain and refill and now it overheats or did the overheating start on it's own and the "suspossed" reason is an airlock?? If you drained and refillled and the problem started...did you install the coolant supplement pellets and , if so, where were they installed into the cooling system?? If they were put in the pressurized surge tank (incorrect) instead of the radiator hose (correct) then they could be blocking the hose from the surge tank to the water pump inlet causing the system to not fill and the pump to lock up. More info is needed. DO NOT run the engine at WOT until you figure out what is wrong here. It will NOT fix the problem and will likely damage the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 The problem started when I was driving the car from the parking lot at the airport and coming back home on SAturday. It was parked there for more than two weeks. The distance is almost 30 miles. While I was 10 miles from home, I just looked at the temperature and it was already in the red zone. By the time I pulled over and parked teh car on teh side it reached teh H mark. I then allowd it to cool down and went to get the coolant. I put in the first bottle in and then took the car to the near by gas station. Less than a mile. Filled the compartment with the coolant and then drove back home. During those 10 miles teh temperature was in teh middle all along. At home I started checking all possible suspects. Changed teh thermostat, looked and checked the pulley and the belt of teh water pump. checked all hoses and filled it again. Tried teh engine again but this time after covering only 5 to six miles, the engine got heated up. Before it reached teh red, I pulled over and waited for the thing to cool down. Brought the car back home. Next day my mechanic friend (semi mechanic) came in and we thought that it must be the air trap. We filled teh surge bottle and let the coolant flow through teh small pipe coming from the engine (as discussed before). One thing that I noticed was THE RETURN PIPE TO THE SURE BOTTLE WAS THROWING STEAM AND NO LIQUID. So we did BLEED the car and I took it again to the nearby gas station. Got heated up again within two miles. Oil is clean with no evidence of water. Checked teh exhaust for teh smell of antifreeze but nothing there. And my friend did the block check and the liquid didnt turn yellow (like it does after getting any hydrocarbon in teh radiator). The color changed very insignificantly however noticeable in two different comparments of the tester. So now the car is towed to my mechanic friend. I am not sure how much does he know about cadis. He thinks that the head gasket is gone. Or probably the start of engine decline. A few things that I dont understand, why its getting hot quicker? Why there was no coolant coming from teh hose going inside the surge bottle. i am not sure what I need to do. I love this car and it has been my dream car from the begining. Bought it recently using my savings and now this....... Anyone with good news?????? I wish if something can work out for this car.. Any help will b great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 If there is no coolant from the bypass to the surge tank, then either it is empty, pluged or the pump is inop. Are you SURE the pump is pumping (spinning)? Perhaps a sheared shaft, pully spinning freely on the shaft, impeller seperated from the shaft, any of which would be prefereable to a head gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Larry, Bill Thanks a lot guys for all your help. Larry, I will check the path between teh engine outlet and the surge bottle inlet to find the problem areas. Also will check the pump to see if its working properly. Bill, The mix was not right specially when I was trying to purge teh system. I will make it right tomorrow. Do you see any reason to worry about what my mechanic is saying. That is the engine block problem or the headgasket problem. That is too scary for me. I am going to go to his shop tomorrow and will look for everything you guys said. Any logic behind why its getting hotter quickly than before? Water starts boiling within two miles now.... But guys, thanks a bunh for all your help. This has been suck a great forum and you guys are awsome.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Is readiator can be a suspect as someone may have put water in it and since the car was standing there for a while??? I bought this car a few days back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Sorry about misunderstanding. I bought it few days ago before I left for my trip and came back after two weeks. So not much of driving since I bought it. And thanks... no bodies . I checked it again This is what I did today after work. I checked teh waterpump and made sure its rotating. I checked the thermostat again to check if it is getting stuck again. The next thing on my list is to check the path from the engine to the throttle body and then to the surge tank. Finally I will check teh radiator. I am just trying to isolate the problem. So far Pump is working, Thermostat is working and rest needs to be done either Thursday or Friday night.I have to leave for a trip tomorrow. During my absence, I will ask my friend to take the radiator and get it cleaned. A new radiator is about 250 and the cleaning costs $75. So I will go for that. One thing that made me think of radiator is the following behavior. When teh engine temperature reached a little above teh middle bar, the fans kick in. After that it went to higher speed. But the temperature still kept climbing up. That could mean that the radiator could be a suspect. What do you think. The problem is thta this mechanic is insisting that its the engine and the head gasket. I dont se any signs of engine problem. Just trying to follo some logic. Again I appreciate all of your help and assistance in this regard. I just love this car.. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Just for the hell of it, before you pull the radiator, blow out the fins with compressed air then flush it with a garden hose. You'll be surprised at the dead bugs, bird feathers & dirt that comes out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 A quick question just to be sure What is the normal RPM for the water pump when teh engine is running idle. Is it too slow that you can count the revolutions or fast enough that you can not see the fins? Also when the cooling circuit goes to the throttle body heater circuit after the engine block, whats the best way to find whether that route is blocked or not? Appreciate your response on those two topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 A quick question just to be sureWhat is the normal RPM for the water pump when teh engine is running idle. Is it too slow that you can count the revolutions or fast enough that you can not see the fins? Also when the cooling circuit goes to the throttle body heater circuit after the engine block, whats the best way to find whether that route is blocked or not? Appreciate your response on those two topics. I am not sure of the rpm, I'll leave that for Bill. I do recall him saying that it was very efficient and pumps a very high GPM even at idle. I remember being rather surprised at the volumn. I want to say 40 gpm at idle but not positive. Bottom line, it must be turning fast. Not sure about question #2. Is that the bypass curcuit back to the surge tank? If so just remove the hose at the surge tank and see if it is flowing. If you are talking about somethiing else then I am not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Larry, Its not moving fast. Its so slow that I can see teh blades making the revolution. I am planning to change teh pump for sure. IF pump is the problem and not throwing enough coolant in teh circuti, that probably explains why the coolant is not coming out of the 3/8" return hose in the surge tank. LAst time when I checked it was throwing steam only. I think it must be the pump , and may have slipped bearing or something else. I will replace it with teh new one. When I opened it, I saw quite a bit of rust spots on teh cosre of the pump. I am going to work on it tomorrow. Wish me luck. I really love this car and wants it to be back to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I assume you know you need a special water pump socket to R&R it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Will I be able to get it from Autozone rental tools???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I am told they have them for rent. Never had to do one yet but I made one so I have it when I need it. Lysle sells cheap ones for about $15. A good HD one from Snapon will run about $75. I've heard someone on this board say the Lysle ones tend to slip off. I think others have had good luck with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike98c Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 You might want to unload the tension on the idler arm pulley and make sure it is turning freely. I had an issue with the pulley binding and the belt slipping at high rpms. The pulley sounded dry but turned although it would only turn through a couple revolutions when giving it a spin and then as the engine turned it with the pressure of the belt the pulley would start to bind and the tensioner would begin to bounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Bill, I think it sounds crazy but I opened up the water pump housing and then start the engine for few seconds to see the pump rotating. I was actually looking at the waterpump fins. Those were not moving at 600 rpm but slow enough to make me count the revolutions. I will however follow your advise and track the hose and follow the coolant. I did check the thermostat and just to be on the safe side, I bought anohter thermostat from AC Delco and will put that in today as well. I will start working on it this afternoon. Wish me luck.. Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliRaza Posted February 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Here is the latest update Tested the existing pump and the pulley and the tentioner. The tentioner was slipping and was not tight enough. I took the belt out and put it again after lubricating teh spring and then the pump started turning right. Second step: I traced the hoses all the way to the surge tank and this time the coolant came through from teh 3/8" hose coming back into the surge tank. Step 3: I removed the thermostat just to make sure the coolant flow will not be obstracted. (this is for testing purposes only) Step 4: Filled the right mix 50/50 of coolant and distilled water and put on the original radiator cap. Step 5: Started the engine and let it run on idle. Hose pressure was fine. The front hose warmed up. The hose to the surge tanke still throwing coolant. (Just took it off to check the flow and put it back again to the nipple). Temperature went up to the half mark. I was expecting teh fans to kick off but nothing happened. Then it crossed teh half mark and reached teh second mark after the half mark. Fan still didnt come on. I turned the AC on and fan came up and temperature started going down. However even with temperature all teh way to three quarters, fan doesnt come up by itself unless I turn the AC on. Also only one fan kicked in. The smaller fan is still off. Looks like its a intermitent problem becuase last time (early this week) when I checked teh fans, both were running. So my suspects: Engine coolant temperature sensor Fan control module Fan relay Any help will be helpful... My mechanic was still adament that its teh engine (head gasket) but I am sure he doesnt know what he is talking about. He never worked on these engines before so I dont give much weight to his advise. HE is good for Toyotas and Mazdas only. Please give your recommendations: Should I do it myself after getting your valuable advise Should I take it to the dealer and ask him to check the fan control Should I take it to the dealer and ask for a complete diagnostics Again I appreciate all your help and it is a real learning experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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