Jump to content
CaddyInfo Cadillac Forum

OVerheating... Coolant spilling off


AliRaza

Recommended Posts


  • Replies 119
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Jeff,

I checked the fans and they are installed correctly.

The problem is pretty atypical.

When the rate of change of speed is fast and abrupt, the engine temperature goes high very rapidly. IT is not related to what the speed is but realted to rate of change of speed.

When bring the engine back to idle, the temperature comes back to naormal certifying the fact that circulation started again. I am still pretty sure that its the coolaing system problem and not teh engine.

How can I check the throttle body circuit? I was thinking that the rate of change of speed causes two things to change in the cooling system scenario. One teh speed of teh water pump because of teh engine shaft pulley. The other could be the throttle body position.

Any ideas???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I can see, there are 2 throttle body coolant hoses. If your looking straight at the throttle body, one hose comes out of the lower left side then bends upwards. The other one comes out of the lower right side and bends down and left a bit.

Cooling System Circulation (from the service manual):

The engine mounted water pump is belt driven. Coolant from the radiator outlet flows to the water pump inlet, and the coolant is pumped through coolant passages in the engine block and into the cavities surrounding the cylinders. Coolant then flows through holes in the cylinder head gaskets into the cylinder head coolant passages. When the thermostat is closed, the coolant is prevented from returning to the radiator and the coolant is recirculated for quick engine warm-up. When the engine reaches operating temperature, the thermostat opens, and the coolant flows to the inlet tank on the top left side of the radiator. The coolant is cooled as the coolant flows across the horizontal core tubes to the outlet tank on the right side of the radiator. The water pump takes coolant from the radiator and passes the coolant through the thermostat on the inlet side of the pump. The coolant enters the block at the rear of the engine from the crossover. The coolant is then routed through the cylinder heads back to the crossover. At this point the coolant has the following 4 possible routes: the radiator, the thermostat bypas, the heater core, the throttle body heater circuit.

Jeff

Jeff

98 Concours

90 Seville

04 Corvette

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey I've just been reading all your posts about your problems, Feel really bad for you. It seems like you have really spent a ton of time and some money and have yet managed to find the source of the problem. My advice is to have a good mechanic, forget about your friend. Find yourself a fully licensed independent mechanic. You may be mechanically inclined but these guys know their stuff. I have learned that sometimes I could spend days trying to figure out what's wrong with my car and start replacing parts, and at the end I always take it to my mechanic and he says oh it's this, and sure engough it usually turns out to be something really small and fixes the problem. Hey maybe it's your waterpump, and if so the whole thing rebuilt would have cost you about $200 and it would work perfectly...Anyways good luck with your problem but do yourself a favour, before you even think about getting rid of your car get a real mechanic to check it out...hey just because he looks at it doesn't mean you have to do what he says... It's well worth the $60-70 in labour to give you a peace of mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bbobynski,

I was reading one of your previous note to someone about a simillar problem and you suggested that he should look at the vapor vent line on teh water pump housing. Is it a case with 97 Seville? I am trying my last efforts before going to the dealer.

Will appreciate your help

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Late last night when I was ready to do what Bill told me to do, I started teh engine and first remove the 3/8" hose from the surge tank. As soon as I removed it, I could see hig pressure coming from the surge tank and low stream of water (not pressurized coming from the hose). Does it mean anything. Why the surge tank producing so much pressure? Is it developing enough pressure to push the water back in the opposite direction and at higher RPM the back pressure is so much that it is resisting the water circulation?

OR

Is it just because I removed the hose from a pressurized tank that is at 15psi and it got a escape route through the removed hose? But I still feel that the coolant from the hose going into the surge tank should have more pressure. OR the pressure dropped because it was opened to atmospheric pressure and lost all the punch. How fast and how much pressure the hose pipe should exhibit when removed from the surge tank?

Any ideas????

Didnt get a chance to work on it much last night because got occupied into something else. Will work on it tomorrow evening....

Thanks

Ali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been watching this unfold since the 15-Feb-04. Bruce, whats the most number of replies for a given entry? Or is this the record. This is turning into a never ending story and better than most soap opera's. I can't wait to find out what it took to finally correct the problem. My guess would be the water pump or an air build up inside the pump that preventing it from circulating the collant properly. Ali, good luck...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been watching this unfold since the 15-Feb-04. Bruce, whats the most number of replies for a given entry? Or is this the record. This is turning into a never ending story and better than most soap opera's. I can't wait to find out what it took to finally correct the problem. My guess would be the water pump or an air build up inside the pump that preventing it from circulating the collant properly. Ali, good luck...

I agree... Almost want's to make ya get on a plane so you can participate..... :unsure:

Dennis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys,

I am working on it right now.

This is what I found today. I bought some transparent plastic tubing to see how much Coolant the system is circulating. Coolant from teh engine block and also from the throttle body output is coming slower, intermitent and with air. At one point the engine was running and I can see no coolant movement at all in the transparent tube coming out of the throttle body coolant hose.

This means that the water pump is really the culprit. What do you think????

Also how to un-install teh aterpump from the housing. I opened-up the housing and I know the pump needs to be twisted clockwise but is there anything else (any lock ) that may restrict that movement. Any easier way to get teh pump out? HELP Please. I think I am pretty close now. And this will definitely be my last try

Ali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a special tool you need to remove the water pump. You can rent it from Bruce on this sight or try to see if you can rent one from a local auto parts store. They can also be purchased for as low as 20.00 I believe. I tend to agree with you........seems like the water pump is the culprit. Lets hope so!

Jeff

Jeff

98 Concours

90 Seville

04 Corvette

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ali,

Just caught up on the ongoing problem as I was snowmobiling for a few days. When you removed the hose from the surge tank, was the engine hot? There shouldn't be any pressure when cold. If it was cold then perhaps a bad head gasket was pressurising the system. That said it sure sounds like a water pump. The only thing I can figure is that somehow the pump shaft has come loose from the impeler or the drive pully is slipping on the shaft. Not common from what I understand but stranger things have happened. I made myself a water pump socket for when/if I need it. You can see it here so you know what you are looking for. GOOD LUCK! http://www.geocities.com/grandolfo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can purchase the water pump tool from AUTOZONE for about $20 then return it for a refund when you are finished. To get the old pump out requires a 1/2 inch breaker bar and you may need an extension for the bar (use a pipe over the handle). To remove the pump I believe that it is rotated counter clockwise or towards the firewall. Look at the tabs on the new pump to be certain. Lightly grease the new o-ring on the new pump. The new pump will rotate into position very easily. When I did mine I also purchased the pump at Autozone for about $50.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can purchase the water pump tool from AUTOZONE for about $20 then return it for a refund when you are finished. To get the old pump out requires a 1/2 inch breaker bar and you may need an extension for the bar (use a pipe over the handle). To remove the pump I believe that it is rotated counter clockwise or towards the firewall. Look at the tabs on the new pump to be certain. Lightly grease the new o-ring on the new pump. The new pump will rotate into position very easily. When I did mine I also purchased the pump at Autozone for about $50. Inspect the old pump to see if the impeller was loose for the shaft.

The reason I had to replace mine was that the bearing seal was weeping coolant after the engine warmed up. There is also a lot of good information on this subject in the archive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JUST A THOUGHT , SINCE THIS IS A USED CAR , WHO IS TO SAY THAT AT ONE TIME OR AOTHER SOMEONE DID NOT MIX GREEN AND RED ANTIFREEZE TOGETHER. THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM , BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. IF THIS DID HAPPED THEN THE RADIATOR MAY BE PARTIALLY STOPPED UP WITH THE BLACK GOO, THAT FORMS WHEN YOU MIX THE TWO TOGETHER. NOW WHEN YOU ARE AT LOW RPM THEIR IS ENOUGH FLOW FROM THE RADIATOR TO THE ENGINE TO KEEP IT AT OR NEAR NORMAL. WHEN THE RPM GOES UP YOU HAVE REDUCED CROSS FLOW AND THE ENGINE OVER HEATS. IF IT WERE ME I WOULD TAKE THE RADIATOR OUT HAVE IT CLEANED OUT AT A RADIATOR SHOP AND PUT A NEW PUMP IN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Franey,

I already got the radiator all cleaned up from the radiator shop. I got the water pump tool today. Will work on it tonite. I hope the change of waterpump will take care of my problems and will be able to ride my caddy......:)

I am very hopeful. I will still keep those transparent hoses just to see the performance of the new water pump. Will let you all know....

Again thanks a lot for all the help. I went through the whole sequence of posts today and one thing that I have noticed throughout that it is a great forum with great people. And yes looks like a soap opera..... Even better....

Thanks again for all your help

Wish me luck and hope this will work for me.

Ali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK ... I think I gave up today....

I changed the waterpump and let the transparent hoses intact for a while just to see teh water flow. This time water was flowing but still had a lots of air coming from the throttle body going back into the surge tank.

After running it idle for 20 minutes, the temperature was about 190F.

We replaced the hoses and took teh car for a ride. Driving carefully the temperature was in the range of 200 to 212. Sometimes went up to 215 and 217.

No sudden change in teh driving conditions but after 15 minutes of driving at about 50mph, the temperature started crawling up and within a minute went upto 258. We parked the car in neutral and left it at idle. Also turn the Heater fan on high.

After a couple of minutes it started coming down and came back to 206 210.

We got on the road again, this time coming back home, and after few minutes of driving, same thing happend and we had to bring it back to idle.

We then took it to the highway and drove it around 60 to 70mph. After a couple of minutes, teh temperature crawled up to 250 plus and had to take an exit and bring it to neutral. Temperature started falling down again.

During the course, we checked the fan (to see if its running or not) but the fans were running fine.

Any ideas????

I am out of all.... Tired and dejected..... Dont havea a clue. Went through each and every part of the cooling system.... One thing that I dont understand, in a closed system, why there was air in teh hose coming from throttle body into surge tank? Is it a gasket problem?? Just unbelievable.

Ali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could this be caused by a simple mistake such as putting the thermostat in backwards, or will it only go in one way. The other obivous question is are you sure the coolant is at the proper level. Way back when this all started you stated that you added two bottles, what size bottles? (quart/gallon). You will begin to overheat when the system is down about a gallon. You should have also been given the low coolant warning message on the dash before any serious overheating occurs. Before all this happened what temp range would you normally have. Mine typically ranges from 196-200 at highway speeds and as high as 220 when standing in traffic on a hot day. Probably the worst thing that can happen to an Aluminum engine is to overheat. Things start to warp and crack.

If you are producing any white bellowing clouds from the exhaust pipe, then there is a real problem. If the exhaust looks fine the engine is hopefully O.K. You have done just about everything that there is to do. The problem appears to be an air pocket in the water pump preventing it from circulating the coolant properly. When the engine is cold the upper radiator hose should be cool to the touch and as the engine warms up the thermostat should open and you should feel the upper radiator hose becoming hot to the touch. Is this whats happening. You don't appear to be overheating at idle. Is this true, can the car idle for a long time with out over heating?

Forget the idling question. You stated in a previous post that you were at idle for 20 minutes and it stayed at the proper temperature of 190f. After idling for a long time did the radiator fans kick in periodically? It looks like you are overheating at highway speeds, everything is normal, and then all of a sudden in the spand of a few minutes the temp goes way up. You pull over to let the system cool down. Are the fans running at this time. At highway speeds the fans shouldn't be needed. One last thought, possibly is there anything loose in front of the radiator that at highway speeds could flip up a block the radiator core? Preventing the radiator from cooling properly, check for anything loose in that area.

When the temperature guage rises does the engine begin to run differently(pinging, missing, etc...). It would be a shame if the problem turned out to be a bad temperature guage sensor or intermittent shorted wire. In a earlier post you stated that it went as high as 300f, I didn't think that the guage could display a range that high. You should have also received a console message that the engine was going into self preservation mode by running on 4 of the 8 cylinders.

You would think that with all the expertise this board can muster that a cooling problem should be fairly easy to resolve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the response to the previous post.

First of all, thanks a lot for making me feel good about the engine. I wish its not screwed yet.... I was talking to my cousin yesterday and we were talking about "Do we need to look for a new engine for this car or What???"

Anyways here are the responses.

1: Thermostat can not be placed in the wrong direction. So I am pretty sure that Thermostat is placed correctly.

2: I filled the coolant and toped it up. The mixture was a bit ritch at one time. I would say instead of 50/50 it was 60/40 where 60 was teh coolant.

3: Very first time, I did get teh low coolant level warning but then it started to get overheated. That was when I didnt do anything on teh car. Since then I have been trying to troubleshoot and changing stuff. E.g. Thermostat, Water pump, Waterpump belt and teh tentioner. Got teh readiator cleaned and filled with exact mixture of 50/50 probably three to four times after doing complete flush.

4: The idle temperature is 199 to 212. The temperature starts rising at a higher speed. And last night I noticed that its not on above 2500rpm as I reported. It even happened below 2000 as well. One thing for sure. It got a mind of its own. temperature went up and at teh idle came down as well. No aparent reason.

5: There are no white clouds coming out of the engine. Engine performance doesnot effect as teh temperature rises. One time I had the AC on and it shutt the AC off to protect teh engine. As the car gets hot even on idle, the thermostat opens up. The big hose in front of the radiator starts cold and then afterwords it starts getting warmer and hot to touch. Also you can see the buliding pressure just by pressing it a little.

6: I checked for anything that may block the radiator at high speed but couldnt find any. Also whenever I checked the fan at high temperatures, the fans were running fine.

7: I thought about the bad temperature gauge. But as teh temperature gauge goes up, and if you stop teh engine, the coolant boiled and spill out of teh overflow pipe on teh surge tank.. So the temperature sensor seems to be ok. One thought could be an intermitent fan failure on teh highway or high speed. I am not sure about it.

8: I setup my DIC to read coolant temperature and thats where I was reading the temperature from. Last night it went as high as 258F

I never saw the message that engine is in self perservation mode on my console during all this episode. So I think I nver reached to that point yet.....

Any comments.... Any light towards a good news......

NEED HELP

SHOULD I JUST GO TO THE DEALER. DOES TEH DIAGNOSTIC CAN READ THIS PROBLEM???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AliRaza,

To begin, you patience and determination are outstanding !

Is it possible that the water pump suction hose (assuming there is one from the raditor), has an internal, partial de-lamination? What I mean is perhaps a small flap on the inside hose layer has broken loose such that it acts as a check valve against the flow to the pump. This may be difficult to determine, since it could be move into and out of position depending on heat loads and flow rate (rpm).

The lower hose may have a spring coil inside to prevent overall collaspe. However, based on the shear volume of investigatin and you have already done, you might just be (un)lucky enought to have a small flap between the coil spiral causing the problem.

I apologize if I have missed the fact that you or others have already asked and eliminated this potential problem.

I wish you good fortunel and and I'm sure we are all very interested what the solution will be. :rolleyes:

Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Larry,

I installed a new cap that I bought from the dealer. It is supposed to hold 15 psi. I will get it checked again.

Any other tips

If I take it to the dealer and ask for a full diagnostics ($64), do you think that diagnostic will be able to catch the problem??

Please advise...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...