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Topplockspackning eller något annat?


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Hej!

Nu har jag med fått problem med min Cadillac Seville STS -96 iofs så hade jag väl nästa räknat med något skulle hända.

Köpte den 28/12 i Borås och gick igenom den så grundligt jag kunde och kunde inte då hitta något konstigt förutom att det fanns en felkod P0151 "Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Circuit Low Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 1" samt ett meddelande "Service Emission System EXP 104" men Service Engine Soon lampan var släckt. Bilen gick perfekt och inget annat konstigt kunde jag hitta.

Så jag tänkte att jag gör rent kontakterna på syresensorerna senare och ser om felkoden och meddelandet försvinner.

Bilen köptes och jag begav mig hemåt (19 mil) och bilen gick som en dröm, men efter ca 5 mil såtändes Service Engine Soon har sedan den lyst konstant utan jag har fått några nya felkoder eller märkt något annat på bilen. Den gick lika bra som förut.

Väl hemma så rensade jag koderna och lampan släcktes, men kom strax tillbaka med samma felkod och meddelande utan att jag märkte någon försämring på bilen.

Tänkte då att jag skulle åka in till en gör det själv hall och spraya WD-40 på kontakterna, menannat kom i mellan just då.

När jag sedan några dagar efteråt skulle köra bilen, så upptäckte jag brun kylarvätska i snön under bilen, inte mkt men det fanns där.

När jag sedan körde så märkte jag att vid högersväng så blinkade oljelampan till så jag kolladeoljan och döm om min förvåning när jag inte såg något på stickan?!

Köpte mig en dunk Castrol 5W-30 A5 och fyllde i en liter dagen efter, men fortfarande såg jag inget på stickan, fyllde ytterligare på en liter och inget på stickan, kollade under bilen om det läckte ut något, men snön var vit och fin. Tömde i resten av dunken totalt 4l och fortfarandeingen synligt på stickan?! Startade upp bilen, inga nya felkoder eller meddelanden, motorn spann som en katt.

Så jag beslutade mig för att åka och lägga på vinterdäcken (den köptes med sommardäck och lösa nya vinterdäck utan fälg följde med).

Bilen gick kanon, tyckte att värmen var lite seg, men den kom igång snart (hade nog varit runt -8 grader på natten) och nu lyste inte oljelampan när jag svängde. När jag kom till stället därjag skulle lägga på däcken och parkerade, så såg jag en sträng av brun vätska efter bilen och när jag tittade under den så rann det kylarvätska ordentligt ur bilen. Hade dock normal temperatur och inga meddelande i bilen tidigare när jag körde den dryga mil det var tills jag kom fram.

Öppnade huven och tittade i expansionskärlet som i princip var tomt, men en brun oljeblandad sörja fanns där, skruvade av oljepåfyllningslocket och likadant sörja där (ungefär som milkshake gjord av choklad). Tittade på oljestickan, men den var snustorr.

Kollade även om jag kunde se någon slang som hade gått av, men hittade inget.

Så där stod jag, lånade en bil och åkte iväg till en bilverkstad ca 1km därifrån och pratade med dom. Vi åkte sedan tillbaka och provade att starta bilen, som gick igång utan problem, inga meddelande eller annat, förutom dom tidigare. Så jag körde den till verkstan sakta, men inget konstigt hände, dock steg temperaturen till strax över mitten på mätaren, men inget annat, ingen kokning eller liknande.

Nu har jag fått domen, topplockspackningen påstår dom, vilket jag tycker är underligt. Då jag inte tidigare har varit med om något externt läckage vid trasig topplockspackning utan bara kylvätska som har försvunnit. Men här har det kommit olja in i vattnet och inga synliga läckage gåratt hitta. Har inte heller fått några varningar i bilen på att något har varit på dock förutom det jag har skrivit i texten. Jag har inte heller plågat bilen eller kört den vårdslöst, så detär lite konstigt att den skulle gå sönder.

Priset för att fixa detta skulle landa på ca:20000:- enl verkstan och dom verkar seriösa. jag har ringt runt lite och fått upp till 60000:- i kostnad.

Dom säger att dom har kollat igenom motorn när dom har kommit med diagnosen, men finns det intenågot annat som skulle kunnaorsaka olja i kylarvattnet, t.ex. oljekylaren? Vad säger ni kunnigasom har lite erfarenhet, har dom rätt är det topplockspackningen eller kan det finnas något annat värt att kolla? Verkstan verkar väldigt säkra när jag pratar med dom.

Nu har jag bestämt mig för att fixa detta, då bilen köptes "billigt" samt att den är rejält påkostad av förra ägaren och fixar jag detta nu, så borde den väl gå många mil sen, hoppas jag.

Har även pratat med den jag köpte bilen av, men han har ju inte märkt något tidigare?!

Tacksam för alla tips och idéer jag kan få.

Mvh

Micke

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Micke: För en viss diagnos för huvudet läckage, har kylvätska kollade för avgaser biprodukter. Du kan lukta kylvätska overflow tanken själv, och om du luktar avgaser det, då vet du att huvudet packningar läcker. Men testet radiator shop hittar läckage så liten att du inte lukta det enkelt.

Där inget rimligt sätt för vatten att komma in i oljan genom motorn. Om du har olja i vatten eller spår av vatten i oljan efter parkering bilen under lång tid, är läckagen förmodligen i olja värmeväxlaren i kylaren.

Ett symptom på liten huvud läckage är förlust av kylvätska under körning med inga andra symtom. Nästa, överhettning kommer att hända när du passerar en bil eller dra en kulle på motorvägshastigheter. Men en igensatt bypass slang kan härma dessa symptom, som kan mindre än 50-50 frostskyddsvätska i kylvätskan.

Kör de OBD-koderna och post dem här, och vi kan berätta mer om vad som händer med bilen.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Hi

Thanks for your quick answer. The car is now at the workshop, they are convinced that the head gasket has gone. Unfortunately, I will not have acess to the car right now to see if there have emerged some new codes than the P0151 which was previously. I ask the shop several times if it can not be anything else, but they claim that they have checked the car for other errors. I will go and talk to them on Monday again, I am not convinced that it is the head gasket. But how do you get them to understand and dare I drive the car away with the error that is and have another shop to look at it?

Best Regards

Micke

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The head gasket repair is so expensive that prudence demands that the diagnosis be very certain.

You don't have to drive the car away. If you can walk up to it and raise the hood, you can smell the surge tank. You can turn the key in and run the OBD codes.

If you can't smell anything in the surge tank, start the car and run it for a few minutes (it doesn't have to warm up, but that would be good). Carefully and slowly remove the radiator cap using a shop rag to prevent burning yourself and smell the surge tank again. Another test is to smell the exhaust after starting the car cold; if you smell coolant, that is pretty certain as proving head leakage.

Many auto parts stores sell inexpensive kits to test the coolant for combustion by-products, or you may be able to use one that you borrow. Look around.

Just tell these fine people that have your car that you want to be certain before proceeding because so much money is at stake. Tell them what you want to do and why. You might also ask if they have tested the coolant for combustion by-products.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Thanks

I was there yesterday and talked to them and they claimed it certainly is the head gasket. But I'll go there on Monday also to talk to them and check codes. Should also demand that they do a proper investigation and if they still claim that it is the head gasket, I will require if it proves that they have been wrong then they must pay for the extra repair.

Thank for your advice and the support for my thoughts on that there might be something other than a cylinder head gasket. I will keep you updated.

Best Regards

Micke

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Hi again

One thing that concerns me is that I saw no oil on the dipstick and I filled 4 liters without noticeable on the dipstick. Where did the oil disappeared if it not ended up in the engine? Can it go into the cooling system? Thats is also a question i have. Is it even possible for the oil to go this way?

There was no leak under the car.

Best Regards

Micke

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If the oil cooler in the radiator tank is leaking, the oil can go there. If it is leaking there in large quantities, the coolant will have noticeable oil in it.

I would be gentile with the shop if you have confidence in them. They may have done things that they didn't describe to you in detail, such as a coolant test for combustion by-products. Asking for the details of their diagnosis is a good way to draw them out. Protect your relationship with these people.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Hi

The oil cooler, have i been thinking of since the beginning. I will take it easy with them tomorrow, but ask them to really exclude the oil cooler before they begin to disassemble the engine. I will also ask them to decribe in detail how they come up with the head gasket diagnosis. Because i want that they are sure on the solution, so that the problem will be solved. I do not want to pay for more repairs than is necessary.

Best Regards

Micke

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We are all pulling for you and your car. Please let us know how things develop.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Micke! Jag hoppas du (och din verkstad) är medvetna om hur det fungerar på en NS-motor? Det handlar inte om att "bara" byta toppackningar. Det är gängorna till topplocksbultarna som ger sig och man måste borra ur och montera insatsgängor i varenda bulthål. Skulle tro att de beräknade 20.000 SEK du fått som prisförslag inte räcker långt. De högre summorna är säkert närmare sanningen! Om du söker i gamla trådar här inne får du kanske en bättre bild.

Kanske blir ett motorbyte billigare men det är väldigt svårt att hitta en NS av rätt modell som med säkerhet är bättre då detta fel är den vanligaste orsaken till utskrotade bilar. Lycka till!

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Göran W has a HUGE point here.

I just did a check with the exchange rate and got this:

$5000 == 42,502.86 SEK (Swedish Krona) (as of Sunday, January 10, 2015)

Costs in USA for the job are similar to this:

Engine remove and replace: $1000 (8500 SEK) (you will need to do this with a replacement engine too)

Timesert job and HG repair: $4000 (34000 SEK)

I have heard quotes for a Northstar HG repair as high as $7000 (60,000 SEK) but I have never heard of anyone agreeing to work from a shop with an estimate that high. The total cost can go that high if you buy everything else new: metal heater hoses behind the engine, coils, wires, plugs, water pump, belts and iders (water pump and serpentine), etc.

Their estimate of 20000 SEK (about $2500) allows about $1500 (13000 SEK) for working on the engine while it is out, which might be OK for an iron engine but there is no way that any aluminum engine can be done for that unless the head bolt threads (and all other high-torque threads) are into inserts made of steel. Timesert is the company that makes all the inserts for most American, European, and Japanese makes that use aluminum engines - which is practically all of them.

If you don't have the Timesert kit, buying the tools (see http://timesert.com) is several hundred dollars. From your shop's estimate and talk, e.g. thinking oil in the water means head leakage on a Northstar (it doesn't), they won't have a Timesert kit for your car.

These might be good people and have good rates, but you need someone with experience in doing internal engine work with aluminum engines. A good mechanic can do a good job for his first time, if he is clean, patient, reads and follows instructions, and is willing to do things very slowly, like drill just a bit at a time and then let the drill and block cool, and tap only about half a turn at a time between cleaning out the debris, etc.

With 200,000 miles, you probably should look at the cam tensioners and other internal components while the engine is apart.

If you are mechanically inclined, have the time and a clean place to work where you can use a rented engine stand, you might consider doing the job yourself.

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Hi

Now I have spoken to the workshop and they have done a test on the cooling water and

they have found exhaust gases in the coolant. They have also checked the oil cooler,

but it's no leak. They have also done some more testing and are convinced that it is the head gasket.

They also explain the work for me including Timesert and the cost of 20000 SEK is still valid and they also said

that they have experience with aluminum engines. So what could i do, i need to trust them.

I can not comment the high cost you refers to, but for me i looks very high.

I also checked the codes and i have the this:

T023 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Continuity Fault

P0135 Oxygen O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1, Sensor 1)

P0138 O2 Oxygen Sensor Circuit High Voltage (Bank1, Sensor2)

P0151 Oxygen O2 Sensor Circuit Low Voltage (Bank 2, Sensor 1)

Now i'm going to a business for a couple of days and the car will be finished in the begining of

next week. Then we now if the manage this or whats happens. But i cross my fingers and hope that i

can drive the car again.

I will keep you updated.

Best Regards

Micke

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Låter väldigt bra Micke! Har du fått skriftligt kostnadsförslag? Du vet väl att deras kostnadsförslag i princip inte får avvika mer än 10% från slutnotan?

Om det faller väl ut hoppas jag att du sprider kunskapen om vilken verkstad som fixar det till så lågt pris!

Du har en dålig ABS-givare (eller dålig kontakt) på höger framhjul. De övriga koderna beror säkert på olja/vatten som trängt in i cylindrarna. Har du tur så överlever KATarna och sensorerna men var beredd på otur........

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Hej

Självklart kommer jag att berätta vilken verkstad när väl allt är klart.

Tracking Control texten lyser konstant på bilen (ej abs) kan det bero på denna givare?

Kat'arna hoppas jag verkligen klarar sig och det trodde dom på verkstan också, sensorerna var nybytta (har en ny kvar hemma) så jag håller tummarna.

Jag hoppas verkligen att jag har hittat rätt verkstad som klarar detta till en human kostnad och dom ger verkligen ett gott intryck, jag har t.o.m. fått prata med mekanikern som ska göra jobbet, så det känns verkligen bra.

Jag har varit väldigt tydlig mot dom att inte ta åt sig något jobb dom inte klarar, för det gynnar ingen av oss.

Delarna skulle komma i morgon eller på onsdag, sedan sätter dom igång.

Med vänlig hälsning

Micke

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From my OBD code lists:

T023 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Continuity Fault [this is an OBD I code - the 1996 models still had some of these]

P0135 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Heater Performance Bank 1 Sensor 1
P0138 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Circuit High Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2
P0151 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Circuit Low Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 1

Since you have checked all the facts, trust the shop, and are going ahead, then we will wait and see what happens. Congratulations on getting a good price on a head gasket job with Timeserts.

Göran W does have a point. An old engine with a lot of miles will need some maintenance items for good life, reliability and performance when it is back in the car. There is no better occasion to replace small items as when the engine is out of the car and on an engine stand, and everything is available for easy access. Items that probably should be new for the engine before it goes back include

  • Gaskets as required. A few may be re-used, such as the intake manifold gasket, but I would get them all to avoid delays or problems with old gaskets.
  • Spark plugs. Anything less than OEM Platinum spark plugs is a mistake. They are difficult and expensive to replace, especially on the rear bank, where there is little room to work between the engine and firewall.
  • Spark plug wires. Again, be sure that the new wires are up to OEM standards or they will break down soon. Properly installed OEM spark plug wires will last indefinitely.
  • Water pump, water pump belt, and water pump idler pulley. The water pump drive is on the rear (driver's side) of the engine on the intake cam on the right (toward the front of the car) bank. The water pump itself is removed by turning it clockwise (left-hand thread) with a special tool J 38816-1A or equivalent (as described in the 1997 FSM p. 6-191).
  • Thermostat.
  • Bypass connector, the "bolt with a hole" on the water pump housing cover that is removed to access the replaceable water pump, will need to be cleaned, particularly the hole, through which the cooling system bypass flows.
  • Serpentine belt, idler and pulley. If the idler and pulley are in excellent condition, they may remain, but if they have been in place many years and over 10 years, they probably should be replaced.

Your shop can give you a better list than this one. You should ask them about that, and the cost of these parts, which in total can be over $1000 (8500 SEK).

Things that are commonly in need of repair on engines over 150,000 miles (250,000 km) include

  • Oil pan gasket including oil manifold plate gasket.
  • Huge oil leaks at the case half gasket require that this gasket be replaced.
  • Check the cams for wear. If a cam comes out, check each lifter. Mark them so that you can put them back in the same place that they came from. If a cam is replaced replace all the lifters for that cam.
  • Cam chain tensioners, cam chains, cam chain idler wheel, and sprockets.
  • Oil pump.
  • Front and rear crankshaft oil seals.
  • Oil pressure switch, on the oil filter adapter.
  • Oxygen sensors.
  • Catalytic converter.
  • Piston rings and possibly cylinder wall cross-hatching. If the FPR has been drenching the pistons with gasoline for a long time, the piston rings and cylinder walls could be heavily worn. Restoring the factory cross-hatching to the cylinder walls is critical for low oil consumption and good engine compression, and for piston ring life, and restoring the factory cylinder cross-hatching is not a simple job, probably not even a job to be done by hand.

When an engine is run for a long time with excessive oil burning or with large amounts of coolant going through the engine, or even things like leaded gas that can be put in the car without you even knowing about it, the catalytic converter can be ruined, and soon after, the oxygen sensors. The codes you give look like they could be caused by loose connectors or shorted wiring, but once that is fixed and the sensors are good, you will probably see a

P0420 Catalyst System Low Efficiency

and may even have a clogged or partially clogged cat.

As Göran W says, you should ask your shop what their estimate does include and does not include and you should get a written estimate before they begin. I think that perhaps you should ask them to call you and get your permission before proceeding on any work that is not in the estimate, and notify them that they must provide you with a written estimate for any additional work not in the estimate that they give to you before work begins.

When you complete your head gasket job, and you replace any needed maintenance items, your engine should be good for another 200,000 miles or more. I have seen Cadillacs for sale on eBay with Northstars with 350,000 miles on them (apparently airport limousines).

CTS-V_LateralGs_6-2018_tiny.jpg
-- Click Here for CaddyInfo page on "How To" Read Your OBD Codes
-- Click Here for my personal page to download my OBD code list as an Excel file, plus other Cadillac data
-- See my CaddyInfo car blogs: 2011 CTS-V, 1997 ETC
Yes, I was Jims_97_ETC before I changed cars.

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Hi

Hope your weekend have been good, my has anyway.

Now i have been down to the shop and look at the mess with my own Eyes.

It was lots of oil in the cooling system, so we have to replace the radiator because they cant Clean it good enough. They will also check the Engine and replace gaskets and pistong rings and so on.

But the work seams going well and the have picked out the Engine from the car and have it on the bench. They will do a good work i'm sure of this because they are leave 3 year warranty on the job.

So far so good and the price are still standing.

So now i have to find a used radiator for the car a new one cost around 4000SEK so i hope i can find some used in good condition instead.

When we have find that they can but the Engine back in the car again.

Best Regards

Micke

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Hej

Ja det var ju betydligt billigare. Jag ska ju även ha en sotningssats.

Så jag kollade även Ebay och där fanns et billigare.

Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/95-99-CADILLAC-SEVILLE-4-6L-NORTHSTAR-HEAD-GASKET-SET-L-/400174420137?fits=Make%3ACadillac|Model%3ASeville&hash=item5d2c4110a9:g:imwAAOSwymxVIv73&vxp=mtr

Rockauto: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=2653490&cc=1027819&jnid=503&jpid=0

Skillnaden ju närmare 200 USD vilket var konstigt, är det så stora kvalitetsskillnader?

Det verkar ju vara likadana packningar i bägge?!

Kylare skiljde det inte mer än 20 USD så det var ju lugnt.

Jag kör via https://www.shopusa.com/shopusa/sweden så allt samfraktas och tull samt moms betalas.

Blir runt 2400 SEK vilket är en jävla skillnad.

Med vänlig hälsning

Micke

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hej

Nu är bilen äntligen klar, hämtade den idag och den spinner som en katt. Det blev en hel del att byta och göra. Plana topparna, byta kylare, vattenpump, termostat, tändstift en massa packningar m.m. Nu hoppas jag grejorna håller, men dom lämnar ett års garanti på jobbet. http://www.mekonomen.se/butik-bilverkstad/mjolby/kungsvagen-31-at3395-010 Stjärnborgs bilservice i Mjölby.

Dock så återkom Service Emissions system EXP 104 och servicelampan tänds.

Följande koder får jag

Current

P0151 Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Circuit Low Voltage Bank 2 Sensor 1

TC0023 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Continuity Fault >Detta gör nog att Tracking Control lampan lyser konstant

History

IP1552 History Keep Alive Memory (KAM) Error

AC1348 Very Low A/C Refrigerant Pressure

PZ1552 ???

Jag får väl mäta upp sensor och kolla ev byta den också för att få lampan att slockna!?

Med vänlig hälsning

Micke

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