Brad Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Well, the time has come. Just got home from taking my car in for the infamous piston ring replacement. Talked with the Service Director about time-serting and was told, "if it needs it, it will get it." Not real reassuring, but lets hope for the best. Should have the car back in a week - fingers crossed that all goes well. Now, I am an amateur when it comes to working on cars - oil changes, brakes, changing the occasional alternator, that kind of thing. Can anyone outline this procedure for me other than they take out the engine and rip it apart and change the piston rings? Would appreciate any info on the matter. Thanks Brad ---------------------------- 1999 Deville Concours [sOLD] Blk/Blk w/gold package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Now, I am an amateur when it comes to working on cars - oil changes, brakes, changing the occasional alternator, that kind of thing. Can anyone outline this procedure for me other than they take out the engine and rip it apart and change the piston rings? Well, you actually did a pretty good job of describing what the job entails. But, I can go into a little bit more detail. I drop the engine/transmission/subframe out of the car. From there, I get all the wiring harnesses out of the way and positioned back by the transmission end. Then, remove enough stuff to get the engine disconnected from the transmission. This usually involves the front mount, a/c compressor, alternator, ps pump...etc. Engine get put on an engine stand. Water crossover and water pump and the flexplate are removed before the engine goes on the stand. Then it's a simple matter of removing the front cover, valve covers, timing chains, cylinder heads, oil pan, and lower case half. Remove pistons, install new rings and connecting rod bearings, and slide her all back together. It's really like a big jigsaw puzzle with some technical knowledge thrown in along the way. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted June 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Well, you actually did a pretty good job of describing what the job entails. But, I can go into a little bit more detail. Ian, Thanks for the info. I keep trying to learn as much as possible and this was just something pretty foreign to me. At least now I will be a bit more familiar when I pick up the car and will know what to look over before driving off the lot. Thanks Brad ---------------------------- 1999 Deville Concours [sOLD] Blk/Blk w/gold package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop_Washer2 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Why in the world did you need rings at 48k miles?? I just sold my '99 with 105k ran great, still had original plugs...hell the tires lasted 75k miles...what was up with the rings? Just curious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted June 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Why in the world did you need rings at 48k miles?? I just sold my '99 with 105k ran great, still had original plugs...hell the tires lasted 75k miles...what was up with the rings? Just curious... Prop_Washer2, I have owned the car for about 2.5 years now and have been fighting a losing battle with excessive oil consumption. I have had the decarbonization process done twice and tried numerous other fixes, but have exhausted all options. Car is still under warranty and this supposedly will curb the oil consumption. Car has been using a quart or so every 500 miles. Car runs strong other than the oil consumption trouble. I hope it all works out ok. Brad ---------------------------- 1999 Deville Concours [sOLD] Blk/Blk w/gold package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motor_car Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Make sure they time-sert it. Otherwise the way is wide open for much more trouble than one quart of oil every 500 mi. Good luck Nacho (busy leaving good enough well alone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I agree with Motor City Insist on time-sert or run HARD to expose weakness or trade it in before warenty goes ! From everything I have read on this site: If the heads are ever removed - then the block should be time-serted. Do not only consider sert's due to over-heating or gasket leaks. How would anyone "know" if the alum threads were weakened or not? I cannot envision a strength test or whatever - that would not cause damage in itself. Perhaps the damage is upon re-assembly with some distortion occuring only then but to show up as a head leak some time later. To sert on not to sert ? That is no question ! I think its simply a done-deal to "sert" when its opened up. Good luck with the "Dealer" an apt phrase if ever... Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop_Washer2 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 I am a little confused , just wanted to get the skinny on time-serts. Is this like installing a heli-coil insert on an iron block. I understand that the aluminum block threads prob become oxidized or weak, and stripped upon removal of a stud. My neighbor mechanic friend, custom builds small block, and big block Chevy's for Pro-Street and Strip only, blowers. short rod, long rod, etc...I talked to him about time-certs. He thought it was called Time-Zerts...I just wanted to get the facts mam, ...what is it exactly from the experts here. Does it need to be done on any aluminum block, 100% on all head studs, what is the process to install these, where are they purchased, what is the brand name, what is the cost, etc... Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry94 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Re: Timesert - www.timesert.com Just a note from someone who has been there. When I purchased my '94 in '97, it had a burned exhaust valve. I removed the head and replaced the valves in that cyl. I did not know anything about timeserts, so that didn't get done. The engine worked fine for over two years then a headgasket problem. It was not actually the headgasket, but three headbolts had "pulled" up the threads in the block. This took almost three years to show up. The block is now timeserted. If you plan on keeping this Caddy for an extended period of time, then you should have the inserts installed in the block. This will guarantee that you will not have a failure later. (After warranty) Yes, there is a good chance that without the inserts the engine will not have a problem, however, the chance is always there. Personally, I don't like having that unknown factor, and would negotiate a price to have the engine done while apart. Could be the best insurance you ever paid. Barry 2008 STS V82016 Colorado Z711970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted June 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Heard from the dealer today......car still not completely finished, but hopefully will be put back together tomorrow. Very eager to see how everything came out and if they used time-serts. If no time-serts were used, we are going to have to work out some type of extended warranty coverage because I don't want to get stuck with headbolts stripping out. Still trying to be optimistic here, but with that much work and the horror stories on the board here I am biting my nails......time will tell. Brad ---------------------------- 1999 Deville Concours [sOLD] Blk/Blk w/gold package Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Our suggestion is to work it out with them BEFORE they put everything back together to Timesert the engine. Maybe they want you to pay the full bill for the Timeserts, maybe you work it out where you pay half, etc. But get them on the engine so you don't have to tear it down again. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hi I talked to the dealer about time serts in the event I would have a ring or piston job. The tech I talked to is very good and does most of the ring and piston jobs He mentioned it takes him about 4 hrs of steady work to time sert all the bolt holes and mentioned he has never done a complete one.. just where needed if a bolts hole strips out when he goes to torgue them down.. I never did ask about a price for the time serts but I would imagine that it would be in the 2 to 4 hundred dollar range out of my pocket which I would not have a problem paying He mentioned that he has never had one come back yet due to the bolts pulling out .The mechanic impressed me with his attention to detail on these jobs and the way he goes about doing the job..Usually when I'm at the dealer they have a couple cars in the shop getting this done. So I like to take a peek at them while they are apart.Lucky the service mgr. and tech are nice guys who let me in the service area to have a peek at these while they are torn down..Some of them are really carboned up.. Good Luck Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 If no time-serts were used, we are going to have to work out some type of extended warranty coverage because I don't want to get stuck with headbolts stripping out. Still trying to be optimistic here, but with that much work and the horror stories on the board here I am biting my nails......time will tell. I would agree with Jason, if you want time serts done, you need to sit down with the service department before hand and simply say, "I want them done, I'll pay the extra cost for them that GM will not cover". It's as simple as that. We always give the customer the option when the mileage is higher and we are repairing the motor under some sort of extended warranty (they definitely will not pay for the timeserts) and they always go for the added cost. On a straight "customer pay" job, I simply do not give the customer any choice. The engine gets timeserted as a matter of course, and it's built right into the estimate. The additional cost is about 5 hrs of labour, and the price of 20 timeserts. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 and does most of the ring and piston jobs He mentioned it takes him about 4 hrs of steady work to time sert all the bolt holes and mentioned he has never done a complete one.. just where needed if a bolts hole strips out when he goes to torgue them down.. The mechanic impressed me with his attention to detail on these jobs and the way he goes about doing the job.. Well, I'm only getting your version of what the tech said, but I totally disagree with his methodology of doing timeserts. The last thing you want to be doing is timeserting only the holes that pull threads when you are "re-assembling" the engine! Better to just timesert the block completely before you reassemble. Plus, I've heard it said that you can timesert with the cylinder head in place, but I'll disagree. It's not possible to do "at least" the two holes that have the dowels in the block without removing the dowels. And I highly doubt the other one's can be done through the holes in the head. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Hi Ian I was not too clear but he mentioned what happens is when the hole strips out it can be a pain in the A-- because he has to remove the head again to do the job(time sert) When you start the torgue sequence you never know if one will srtip out on a high milage eng even if the hole looks good prior to installing the head. I really believe the guy can do an engine in 4 hrs but he mentioned he would be working his A-- of no breaks just 4 hrs of steady work but you know how that goes 4 leads to 5 or 6 sometimes or even longer..I have seen the engines torn down and I was impressed at the level of which the work was done I have been a mechanic on aircraft most of my life so I know what it takes to do a good job and he did mention that to do the complete eng the dowels had to be removed I watched him actually do a time sert and he did it rite super clean job and even was going to let the locktight cure over night just to make sure it was properly cured.. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIMDTS Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Just to make it interesting my car has the cold piston rap and what i was told and i believe this to be true it does not matter how many WOT's you do or even deep carbon clean the pistons it will still be there.Only cure is new pistons the teflon coated ones,, So far I,m on the oil consumption program and have not bused more than a 1/2qt in 1500 mi which I'm happy but I still have the cold rap for the first 20 or 30 seconds on a cold start..which I can live with that..as long as it does not develope any problems I will leave it as is.. Just curious.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Hi Ian I was not too clear but he mentioned what happens is when the hole strips out it can be a pain in the A-- because he has to remove the head again to do the job(time sert) When you start the torgue sequence you never know if one will srtip out on a high milage eng even if the hole looks good prior to installing the head. I really believe the guy can do an engine in 4 hrs but he mentioned he would be working his A-- of no breaks just 4 hrs of steady work but you know how that goes 4 leads to 5 or 6 sometimes or even longer..I have seen the engines torn down and I was impressed at the level of which the work was done I have been a mechanic on aircraft most of my life so I know what it takes to do a good job and he did mention that to do the complete eng the dowels had to be removed I watched him actually do a time sert and he did it rite super clean job and even was going to let the locktight cure over night just to make sure it was properly cured.. Jim And this is where I have the problem. You install the cylinder head gasket and head, and begin torqueing the bolts. If you pull a thread out, you are not supposed to re-use head gaskets, and/or the head bolts. So you now have wasted 200 dollars by not just timeserting the engine block. Sorry, he's not doing it correctly or professionally as far as I'm concerned. When I was referring to the 5 hrs labour, that is simply what we charge. It does not necessarily reflect how long it actually takes me. How long it takes me is irrelevent, I work flat rate. As far as I'm concerned timeserting a block from the get-go is one of the wisest things that you can do when performing head gasket replacements on these engines. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 Just to make it interesting my car has the cold piston rap and what i was told and i believe this to be true it does not matter how many WOT's you do or even deep carbon clean the pistons it will still be there.Only cure is new pistons the teflon coated ones,, So far I,m on the oil consumption program and have not bused more than a 1/2qt in 1500 mi which I'm happy but I still have the cold rap for the first 20 or 30 seconds on a cold start..which I can live with that..as long as it does not develope any problems I will leave it as is.. Just curious.. We've had fairly good experience with the decarb treatments for the noise. But we have had to replace pistons in 2 Deville's in the last month. The new pistons look completely different from the old ones....obviously there has been a big change in design. GM is being extremely stingy about replacing the pistons, we have to jump through all sorts of hoops to get the ok to do this procedure. Which doesn't really bother me, it's a big job and under warranty doesn't pay as well as it should. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Maybe this will help you determine the cause of the cold piston rap, why the new pistons are polymer coated, and why they might be so hard to get. Iknow it's for the LS6, but I think the principles are the same. http://www.c5registry.com/2k2z06/page5.htm Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Maybe this will help you determine the cause of the cold piston rap, why the new pistons are polymer coated, and why they might be so hard to get. Iknow it's for the LS6, but I think the principles are the same. http://www.c5registry.com/2k2z06/page5.htm Polymer coating has been around on GM "updated" pistons for a few years now. Nothing new, really. The Northstar "updated" pistons are much more then just "polymer" coated. They have a dome, appear to have a slightly different distance from the top ring to the top of the piston, appear to be a bit longer. Quite a different piston from the original one. They are not scarce....it's just that GM is not interested in re-pistoning a bunch of engines. GM wants to fix as little as possible these days. Mostly because a lot of components in their vehicles appear to have a very bad problem with quality control/design. And hey....now some of the engines are being made in China. It won't be long and all the parts will be made overseas. So much for "buying American"!!! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julio Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Well I've just glanced but you can't tell if you need rings unless they're laying in the bottom of the pan. Also you'll look like the white tornado going down the road really exciting! You're getting hooked be carefull, there's allot of engineering thats goes into the North star, I did my own serts so I'm biased, there are a few things that will cause compression loss one is diffently no rings. If it has only 40k on it then there's more to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyG Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Well, that was an old article. Updated pistons are prob. more readily available now. I think the article says that you need to *smurf* and moan a lot to even be considered for a piston upgrade. Maybe the Chinese angines will have tighter tolerances and the polymer coated pistons and all will be right with the world. As for me, I'll stick with the noisey 6.0 in my Silverado. As the article says, it's not a longevity issue, you might just learn to live with the sound until the engine warms up. Never underestimate the amount of a persons greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julio Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 When you sit down with these guys because you are in the initial phase of this project you need to have a complete understanding but you relinquish some of that once you enter into an agreement to the repair business. Yes when you sert the engine is what is manidtory when you lift the heads. Now you need to pass on that if the decision is to not sert them all is a continounse of the service contract you're entering into. With out that piece written into the agreement you will loose when you take it back. Since you may relinquish supervision over the work even with that clause in the agreement you're usually screwed unless you write status document into the work routine. Where checkpoints are gathered when deciding what holes get serted and those that don't. This is my problem with the whole customer process in the automotive industry. The prices we pay for these vechicles coupled with longevity data availible is what the industry needs to bais their warrenties on. With the caddilac and I've said this before anytime you're engine has to trademark a sert kit it is a design defect and needs to be addressed at that level. You don't know if a ser took until you torque it. A talented mechanic with brass balls is needed to waste a gasket and stop a torque job because a sert is pulling or a non sert is not feeling right. Especally with the torque process with that give it 60 degree round robin triple, hey what is the final torque number? HUH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiden_kai Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 You don't know if a ser took until you torque it. A talented mechanic with brass balls is needed to waste a gasket and stop a torque job because a sert is pulling or a non sert is not feeling right. Especally with the torque process with that give it 60 degree round robin triple, hey what is the final torque number? HUH!!! Maybe english is not your first language, but I can't understand half of what you are saying. And I certainly know if a timesert "took". It "takes" because I do them properly. Haven't had one pull yet. As far as the issue of defective design when it comes to the aluminum threads pulling out of the block, I tend to agree with you, but I guess we have remember the fine balancing act between engineering perfection and the bean counter. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry94 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Maybe english is not your first language, but I can't understand half of what you are saying. And I certainly know if a timesert "took". It "takes" because I do them properly. Haven't had one pull yet. As far as the issue of defective design when it comes to the aluminum threads pulling out of the block, I tend to agree with you, but I guess we have remember the fine balancing act between engineering perfection and the bean counter. Ian If the engine never needs to come apart, then I don't see a design problem. Why design the engine for maybe 1% of the engines that may be repaired. If that 1% is repaired, then there is a proven method (timesert) to deal with that repair to ensure it is 100% reliable. I see timeserts in the same category as loctite, RTV, gaskets, etc, just something you use when you do a repair. It's unfortunate that GM does not make timeserting mandatory. As I have stated before, timeserting when the engine is apart is very good insurance. Barry 2008 STS V82016 Colorado Z711970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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