Bob D Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Ok, I’m in the process of putting in a photovoltaic solar power system on my property. Plenty, plenty of southern exposed real estate here for a good sized system. The idea is to get the power meter to run backwards, generating at least as much power as you use, eliminating those exorbitant monthly electric bills for good!! Careful now…whatever you do, make sure you DON”T design the system to put too much power back on to the community grid, generating more than you use and helping save our dwindling supply of non renewable energy sources. Uh uh…nope..don’t want to do that. PG&E has a deal with the state of Ca. that any credit you might receive at the end of the year for generating more than you’ve used will be lost. Not accounted for. Whatever you do, don’t invest in and generate more than you need, contributing to the greater good. We all loose. Go figure. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 That might change when PG&E is the sole source for solar panels!! They are in bed with your elected officials big time. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I read that to mean it is okay to reverse the flow, but they will be careful not to reimburse you for any extra. So at least on sunny days you may be 0 usage, which is good. It would be nice to be able to capture and store enough to go off-grid most of the time. Then use the extra to split water into H2 for use in the future car, and O2. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 I read that to mean it is okay to reverse the flow, but they will be careful not to reimburse you for any extra. So at least on sunny days you may be 0 usage, which is good. It would be nice to be able to capture and store enough to go off-grid most of the time. Then use the extra to split water into H2 for use in the future car, and O2. You are correct sir. That caveat is by design. As ‘green’ as PG&E claims to be, they really don’t want any help saving those fossil fuels. I.e., cutting into their profits. It’s that simple. Seeing agencies talking out both sides of their mouths does get tiresome… Battery backup is available for the system I’ve come up with, as well as a remote generator tied in. Both are highly desirable for my ‘compound’, it’s just a budget breaker right now. The ability to tie either (or both) is in the design and may happen in the future. Comon’ lotto.. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick7997 Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Very interesting... It's a little disappointing they won't pay you your credit.... A guy near my Dad put up a windmill a few years ago, and he gets a check every month for the power he puts back into the grid, in excess of what he uses.... I'm sure you've considered this, but a battery string would be very feasible... you could float the batteries, and use a rectifier to draw down AC from your battery string when needed... 24 of those big "Wet Cells" would do wonders... I've seen various places that have this sort of a system for backup in case of commerical power outtage.... But good luck, man. I'm always intrigued by projects like this. I'd be curious to hear how it actually turns out, and how much excess power you end up generating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 It's probably been two years or so since I looked into the economics of generating power at the homeowner level, but I don't think things have changed much in that time. Amortized over time it barely makes economic sense. In fact, it's pretty much a loser with current technology. Even if you live in a large "compound" the economies of scale will not help you. It's difficult to supply the grid with more power than you use and do it at a profit. The UPS value, however, is important. My brother, for example, lives in an area of frequent power outages and a whole-house generator has often saved his bacon (literally) along with his frozen peas & carrots. From PG&E's point of view, I don't think they need be concerned about the handful of people consuming negative power from the grid. BUT, they are forward looking people; what if the number of negative consumers expands? Well, at first glance, that doesn't seem a problem either. They can buy a kwh from you for $.03 and resell it at $.06 or more to your neighbor. Sounds like a plan; they are now energy brokers as opposed to energy suppliers. Well of course, they are already energy brokers, buying energy from adjacent neighbors on the grid and even adjacent countries on the grid. Canada comes to mind for example. And Californians could *REALLY* tell us some stuff about energy brokerage! The problem for the energy company grows however, when more and more customers become negative users. Suddenly, negative users want to supply the grid with more excess power than it needs on a sunny day. And the solar customers ain't there in the evening! And the wind-generating customers are *completely* unreliable. There is another problem: when/if excess energy is generated by customers how does the energy company store that excess energy? Or does it? And how to return it to the customer at later time? Current technology doesn't provide adequate solutions. Maybe some guy in a garage will come up with an answer; and he'll buy Bill Gates with his pocket change. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted January 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2007 ^^^^^ Not to belabor this concept, but there is a fine line for the benefit of adding solar power to your property and I’ll try to keep it simple. For a guy to spend 25k for a turnkey 2.5kw solar array when his kw hour usage is relatively low and his bills are 65 bucks a month it makes no economical sense at all. The greenies may love it, but that’s their problem.. In my application I have two residences, a guest house, a workshop and a well on my property. I have calculated my average kw hours per year, and designed a solar array based on the statistical average of 5.5 hrs of direct sunlight per day for my elevation, latitude, longitude and weather patterns. This also includes any “shade factors’ (which there are none) based on the seasons. I have a perfect 20 degree hillside slope with 100% clear southern exposures. Given all that, the 5.5 hrs is fairly conservative. Using these variables, a 12 kw array will meet my needs and break even on the bill, with a slightly positive if any effect. Based on my out of pocket cost for the complete installation, it will pay for itself in 9.8 years. Meanwhile, a monthly check to PG&E of 350-425 dollars will go away forvever… The way it works, the day the array starts putting power on the grid, the billing stops and every twelve months from there on a determination is made to se if you owe money for the balance due, or if a credit for surplus power is due you. There is a limit to the surplus credit however, so don’t go overboard in your design. That’s where you’ll loose. There are some additional benefits to going solar, beyond the monthly savings up front, Through state refunds and federal TAX CREDITS, ~30% of the up front cost of the system is covered. Additionally, the going calculation in the Ca real estate industry is to calculate your annual average savings on the electric bill, and multiply it by 20. The total would be the additional increase you can add to your property value. The GE 200w solar panels have a life expectancy of 30-40 years for an 80% output. The full warranty for the installation is 25 years, form a company that is local, been in business for 26 years, and has done >80% of the solar installation in California, which number in the tens of thousands. Did I mention that I can also write off 10% of the cost due to an office at home? For us, it’s a no-brainer… '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Bob (and others), I would guess that many of us have or will consider alterrnative power at some point for our home or business. My good friend and co-worker of nearly 25-years, has lived for a number of years on our company farm property - which has never had outside power. He used to run a relatively new generator for peak power and to charge batteries along with a woodstove for heat. However, the diesel cost just became too great over time. He has recently installed a solar array (perhaps 8' x 8') on a tilted panel which charges a bank of latest technnology batteries in his basement most of the day while no one is home. The batteries invert to AC during the evening and seem to last for as long as they need. They have relatively low usages by comparison to most folks, but they are quite happy with it. He is well-versed in instrument/mechanical systems and knows how to optimize. At our plant, we used to have a "state of the art" cryogenic, superconductor to store about 3-gigajoules of instant power back through a DC drive to a process-air driver motor at 4,160-volts (for up to a 15-second total power outage). The superconductor was cool (literally and figuratively), but just too expensive. The power company finally listened and eliminated a lot of exposure with proper fusing and fast re-closers. Therefore, we since changed over to flying restarts (tach-controlled soft-starts) for the big motors and bullet-proofed everything else under HFS (hell for stout) UPS systems. We have also considered generating about 4-5 MW of power with our waste heat via steam generation or iso-butane type systems. However, like others have posted, we can barely justify the capital cost considering the low payback from the power company. This is even with exporting 2 MW to the grid. The power company's argument is that they need to keep the power line going to us if we fail (so we get to pay about $40,000 a month for it regardless - big surprice Huh?). And then they just can't count on us, (these are the same guys who used to drop us several times a month...) so our power is not worth much. On the other hand they fight like crazy to keep us from wheeling our lumpy power to another user. And then they also need to have the power line "re-engineered" to determine if electricity can run backwards on it, (at least that's my understanding...but I might be a bit one-sided here). Unfortunately, the overall energy situation will probably have to get a lot worse before public opinion will force polticians to change laws to make power generation a viable concept for both home owners and private companies. IMHO, as long as gas or other fuels contine to slide back from some peak-price every now and then, most folks will just be glad there is gas to be had, the lights are still lit - and keep their mouth shut until the next peak-price. Good luck, Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Bob D, As you've explained it, it seems like a no-brainer. BUT, you've left out maintenance. That's where the costs will kill you. At the facility I work at we have two 1,100 KVA UPS generators. Last week we replaced a roomful of batteries associated with just one of those generators. GAG! I don't even want to ask the cost of that job. I don't expect your batteries to last 9.8 years. Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted January 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 No batteries Warren. These calculations were done for an on-line service, during daylight hours. I've had a 15 kw diesel generator (with a 350 gal fuel tank) for some time now to cover outages due to storms and such. Batteries may come in the future, I'm still holding back as the technology evolves. (And the funds allow) Bob D, As you've explained it, it seems like a no-brainer. BUT, you've left out maintenance. That's where the costs will kill you. At the facility I work at we have two 1,100 KVA UPS generators. Last week we replaced a roomful of batteries associated with just one of those generators. GAG! I don't even want to ask the cost of that job. I don't expect your batteries to last 9.8 years. Regards, Warren '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 No batteries Warren. These calculations were done for an on-line service, during daylight hours. I've had a 15 kw diesel generator (with a 350 gal fuel tank) for some time now to cover outages due to storms and such. Batteries may come in the future, I'm still holding back as the technology evolves. (And the funds allow) Understood. I misunderstood. Batteries be expensive! Regards, Warren There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Bob: The New York Times is watching you. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Well, if Leonardo DiCaprio has it . . . . . . There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob D Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Good article! I couldn't have said it better myself.. Remember, I'm in NORTHERN California. That celebrity noteriety crap might as well be from another planet as far as we're concerned. '93 STS.. opened, dropped, wide...fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 That celebrity noteriety crap might as well be from another planet as far as we're concerned. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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