Flyer Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Tell me where all the real hot rodders of 4.6L Northstar engines are. I know several people, my boss included, that are making INSANE horsepower with the 3.8L GM engine. Said engine produces 360 horsepower at the WHEELS (on 93 octane)! He has done NO shortblock work. Of course he has done alot of work on the rest of the engine ($5000), and he has a factory supercharger. I could list some of his mods, but I am more interested in knowing what can be done to make the Northstar put out more horses (to the tune of say, 375hp). How about port matching heads and intake (can you do that with a plastic intake?)? Port and polish heads? This guy runs 12.2 quarter miles, with a factory exhaust (which sounds TERRIBLE, by the way...). He plans on exhaust work in the future, but I'm at a loss, how can I keep up? Let us ponder what $5000 could buy the Northstar in HP. Wondering... --Flyer '99 'Vert 'Vette 45k '97 SLS 55k Deceased: <'68 Mustang 200+k>, <'86 GMC S-10 180+k>, <'86 VW GTI 180+k>, <'86 Seville 195+k>, <'93 Seville 175+k> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Cadillac Hotrod Fabricators (www.chrfab.com) makes fives sets of camshafts with coinsiding retainers and springs. They advertise the five as going from "Mild to Wild" with the middle ones putting out a modest 75hp over stock. If you were going to have them installed, I would suggest a caddy dealer unless you are well versed in the mechanics of the northstar engine. I have inquired into installation and this is what I found. For the cams the set of four is $450 with a $100 refundable core charge for each old cam. The retainers and springs are $150 each. I've been told by local dealers that it would be around $1000-$1200 dollars to install them. This is because the entire engine and tranny assembly must be dropped out of the bottom of the car to acces the cylinder head on the side of the firewall. Basically, for about the same price as the future supercharger you could have the same power without sacrificing any underhood space. You would have to mess with some of the engine sensors, I think there is a cam position sensor that might pose a small problem but nothing that could be overcome. If your willing to spend the money it would definetly be a great performance mod. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 On a side note, I just called Cadillac Hodrod Fabricators and spoke to them about the camshafts. What they told me was that they only suggest the lowest set which is 272 degree lift. The guy I spoke to said you can put them in a stock car however less restrictve exhaust is suggested. At the absolute least you would gain 30 horsepower easily if not a lot more plus an increase in that ever important torque. You don't even have to change the computer . That is a good thing considering there isn't really anyone who make an aftermarket PCM. All that is left is to pay for installation which is a lot but in the end, probably worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Tell me where all the real hot rodders of 4.6L Northstar engines are. Stick another 4.6L in the rear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Danbuc, Thanks for that info. I'll bet my mechanic could do the install a little cheaper, but that is nice to know that custom cams can be had for only $450?? Are you sure that is for all 4? That is a steal if true. --Flyer '99 'Vert 'Vette 45k '97 SLS 55k Deceased: <'68 Mustang 200+k>, <'86 GMC S-10 180+k>, <'86 VW GTI 180+k>, <'86 Seville 195+k>, <'93 Seville 175+k> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadillac STS Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 The custom cams you guys are talking about is made for 1993-2003 Northstars? Also on a side note, where can i get a bigger TB? And should i change the piping to go along with it? i think that would mean i would have to replace my KN drop in filter for a cone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Maybe it's just me, but it seems when you compare a naturally aspirated engine (such as the northstar) as opposed to a non natural aspirated engine (turbo chargers, superchargers as such) is like comparing apples to oranges. I would like to see how long that transmission will hold up. Use to have a 98 Bonneville SSEI and it was just spunky as hell. Change to under drive pullys and such and a few other mods and the HP/TQ numbers would go up. Not sure about the tranny life though. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 the cams are for all northstar engine I believe, although you might want to call them to find out. As for the transmission, they have put these in street cars and they seem to hold up fine under the extra power. The cams are $450 for all four but does not include the $400 'Refundable' core charge for your old cams. That you get back after you send them back to CHR-Fab. Its really not so bad since you get the $400 back in the end anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 tjtjwdad, We are comparing apples to apples. If we need to supercharge the Northstar to make the comparison valid in your mind, so be it. I still have yet to see any supercharged Northstars for comparison, that is why I ask, where are the hot rodders! If we compare 3.8L displacement to 4.6L, we know who wins out. The question is: how can I make my 4.6L run 12second quarter miles? Supercharger, cams, and porting? Where are all the Northstar hot rodders? --Flyer '99 'Vert 'Vette 45k '97 SLS 55k Deceased: <'68 Mustang 200+k>, <'86 GMC S-10 180+k>, <'86 VW GTI 180+k>, <'86 Seville 195+k>, <'93 Seville 175+k> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 We are comparing apples to apples. I disagree. If you can't find a super charger or turbo charger then there is always NO@. Good luck! Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 If you were willing to risk it, the higher lift cams they sell can make upwards of 100+ more hp plus torque to go along with that which would definitely better your chances. Only question is whether the engine can handle the stress along with the tranny. You would be taking a chance but it would certainly do 'somthing' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinxed45 Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 bbobynski, geez. you sure know a lot about caddys. mechanic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 bbobynski Posted on Feb 27 2004, 02:10 PM "The package is very hard to improve on without a big power adder like NOS or a supercharger in the production application." That's the point I was trying to make when I said "comparing apples to oranges". The bottom line is ... ya' need more air in the same give space." Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Guru, I am just disappointed in the availability of parts and such for the 4.6L vs. the 3.8L. I know from a production standpoint, the 3.8L probably outsells the northstar by 4X or more, so it would stand to reason that more hot rod parts would be available for it, but that doesn't make me feel any better about the limitations you suggest regarding the overall potential of the engine. tjtjwdad, The trans this guy is using is a '65E-HD, I believe the HD stands for Heavy Duty... --Flyer '99 'Vert 'Vette 45k '97 SLS 55k Deceased: <'68 Mustang 200+k>, <'86 GMC S-10 180+k>, <'86 VW GTI 180+k>, <'86 Seville 195+k>, <'93 Seville 175+k> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted February 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Oh, now I get it. I just went to CHF website... nice. But unfortunately to put the Cadillac Seville in the same "supercharger" league as the Grand Prix with 3.8LSC's, we would need to cut a hole in our hood... or see the out come of the supercharger project... I'm waiting... with some money in the bank... --Flyer '99 'Vert 'Vette 45k '97 SLS 55k Deceased: <'68 Mustang 200+k>, <'86 GMC S-10 180+k>, <'86 VW GTI 180+k>, <'86 Seville 195+k>, <'93 Seville 175+k> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Flyer, I'm new to the Cadillac world ... bought my first in June of 2003. From what I gather there probably isn't a big aftermarket for the Northstar engine. Actually, people are suprised when I take them for a ride in my STS. Makes real believers out of them. Prior to that, a Cadillac in their eyes is "an old persons car" just poking along on the street. Actually for me I went on a ride in a 1996 MK VIII in 2000 and when he got on it ... damned was I suprised. We talked about it and he said he felt the Northstar is better. I said " Northstar ... ya' mean Cadillac?" yep' he replied. So a few months later I took a 1996 Deville for a ride and well ... look where I am today. Don't know if its any faster, but I was impresswed none the less! A short while later, I was talking to my younger brother in NC and we were B/Sing about cars. Some how we got to talking about Northstars and he told me this story. He and his buddy were out driving on Church Street in Burlington in a early 80's Camaro (don't recollect the model or year). Well an older lady pulled up along side in an Eldorado (flavor unknown). When the light turned green, the guy driving the Camaro took off some what fast but not a full bore... tires a squeelin.. type of thing. So did the lady in the Eldorado. A stop light caught them. The next time they both stood on it and ... the Camaro lost. The same was repeated at the next light. My brother looks at his friend and says " Dude ... this is embarrasing." The only thingthat would of been the "Cherry-On-Top" would of been if the lady in the Eldorado would of held up her pink slip and ask "wanna' try again sonny?" So the as the story goes "old people have or are quite capable of having a lead foot." I can relate to the aftermarket problem. I'm in the same boat with my Pontiac. Sure, a good Pontiac motor will hang with the best of them but it's a hell of a lot cheaper and far more plentiful parts if one gets a Chevy. IMO the same goes with the Buicks, the Oldsmobiles and Fords of the world. Can't say about Chrysler/Dodge cars. Parts are there for the Fords but they cast a little more. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Sure, a good Pontiac motor will hang with the best of them but it's a hell of a lot cheaper and far more plentiful parts if one gets a Chevy. IMO the same goes with the Buicks, the Oldsmobiles and Fords of the world. Can't say about Chrysler/Dodge cars. I built up an Oldsmobile 403 a few years back and parts selection was many times thin -- especially for the 403 engine, which only had a production run of 3 years. Fortunately, everything about it is shared with every single other Olds small block (except for cylinder bore), so items like intakes and camshafts can be used from other engines. They were definitely more expensive though...sometimes 25-50% more than their SBC counterparts. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 we would need to cut a hole in our hood... or see the out come of the supercharger project... I haven't taken the cover off of my Northstar but with just a casual glance it doesn't appear that the spacing between the cylinder heads is very wide and space looks to be at a premium. Use to hear the same complaints when I had a 92 SHO. Someone finally put out a S/C for it but its awfully expensive and I don't know how it was shoe horned in the engine compartment ... talk about cramped. Good engine though except I feel Ford shot themselves in the foot with the those "damned timing belts" (V6) and the camsprockets on the V8 models. Also, as mentioned, hood clerance (with my car anyway) would look to be an issue as well. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 From what I've seen, the XMS supercharger sits in the airbox area on the driver side of the vehicle, and has a LONG "snout" which passes over the left side spark plugs and gets driven by the accessory belt. Looks convoluted, but it works (I guess). BTW, those Yamaha V-6 engines had one of the prettiest intake manifolds I've ever seen! It looked cool in pictures, but it was really impressive in person. A friend of mine had a '90 and a '92 (both 5-speeds, and both in the shop often). He let me drive the '92 one time...it was a nice car...screamed up to that big redline. They ruined it in '96 with the V-8, and only an automatic tranny. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 jadcock Posted on Feb 29 2004, 07:16 AM A friend of mine had a '90 and a '92 (both 5-speeds, and both in the shop often). The best way I can describe them is … The engine was a one tough bullet but the rest of the car ... well, it was a FORD. That intake was impressive (took up as lot of room under the hood though) and because of it the engine had one flat torque band from about 1500 to 6300 RPM. Actually I believe the HP/TQ to C/I ratio was better than the Northstar (220/3.0 (73 HP per liter) as opposed to 300/4.6 (65 HP per liter)) Unfortunately, they didn't do a good job of getting the power to the ground. But hay ... I believe the SHO was a trendsetter. I can't think of any other American car that was in the same class as a SHO. Look what it did for the industry. Oh ... and I'm taking about the V6. The V8 ... drove one once but they weren't as spunky as the V6. Plus if you know somebody that is contemplating on purchasing one make sure they have had the camshaft sprockets re-welded as a catastrophe might be in order. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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