ezobens Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am reaching the end of my patience with this particular problem. My 1994 Eldorado will not engage the starter about 50% of the time I get in the car. This problem seems to get worse as the temperature drops. I have replaced the starter and replaced the factory battery cables with 2-gauge battery cables. I have also recently replaced the battery and alternator (not due to this issue). What happens is that I will get in the car (usually when it's been sitting for a while- but not always), put the key in and hit the starter. I will hear a click from under the hood like the starter solenoid is engaging but it isn't spinning the starter. I will hit start a few more times, and if I'm lucky, it will finally engage and crank the engine. This is very frustrating- I'm 99% sure it's not a VATS or security issue since I can hear the starter clicking. I have also pulled the starter relay from the left rocker panel harness and hard wired the circuit, bypassing the relay and it still behaves the same. HELP! I am ready to drive this thing into the river- If only it would start! Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loucar1 Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Sure sounds like you replaced about everything ! When this happens place a volt meter across the battery just to be sure the starter is pulling current. It could be the starter you replaced is also bad. Lou 94 Seville STS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjhat Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 How cold is it and what weight motor oil do you use? Is it garage kept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezobens Posted February 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 I am using 5-30W oil and the car is garaged at night. The motor spins fine when the starter engages and the battery is one of those 'Orbital' gel batteries that is only 6 months old. I don't think it's weather related as far as the engine itself. Is it possible that the 'switched' wire to the starter (the purple wire) isn't getting enough current to fully engage the solenoid to kick over the starter? The purple wire plugs into the harness by the front of the right valve cover and the wire on the harness side of the connector seems way smaller than the 10 gauge purple wire coming from the starter. Any comments? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupillac Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Not familiar with that Eldorado but don't they take 10W-30 motor oil? "Cadillac, it's not a car, it's an obsession" -W.Kingdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 Before you do that give me a call and I will come with a trailer and take it away. LOL! Unless of course you're The Eraser and you need to completely destroy "the evidence". Then there's no choice -- river it is! Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince P Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 SLS 147,000 miles What I would do is to try to isolate the problem. I would find the wire that connects to the Solenoid. The low current activation wire. I would connect that directly to the battery or to the battery with a remote starter switch. If the starter works repeatedly, then the primary starter circuit (motor, battery and solenoid) are fine. It it does not work repeatly then work on the primary circuit. The problem is that you cannot get to the starter motor without removing the intake manifold. I hope this helps. It should really be a simple problem. Are you sure that the clicking is from the selenoid? Vince P A backyard mechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjhat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Did this start soon after replacing the battery, or was the problem already there? Have you had the battery checked under load? Also, some cars (i'm not sure about cadillacs) have a ground wire just for the starter going to the frame. If this is the case, take the cable loose from the frame and inspect the connection. I'm assuming that since you replaced the cables you have seen the negative battery wire connection to the frame (or wherever it goes) You sound like you know what your doing, so sorry if this is info is useless! WARNING-COULD BE DANGEROUS!! If all else fails,maybe you could get someone to hold the key in start position, and use a multimeter to check voltages in the starting curcuit to see where it stops. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjhat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 One last thought, could it maybe be the contacts in the ignition switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezobens Posted February 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 I replaced the positive cable to the starter itself with a 2 gauge cable, so I know that connection is clean and tight. I also replaced the ground cable that goes to the engine block itself with a 2 gauge cable and the ground lead going to the chassis on the core support is now a 6 gauge cable as well. In my mind, you can never have too large a cable, so I went a bit overboard perhaps. Since I've never been a big fan of the GM side post connections, both 2 gauge cables now have top post connections. The only existing battery cable is the second positive lead that I still have connected via the original side teminal connector to the side positive post on the battery (the Orbital battery has both top and side terminals). All connections are spotless, clean and tight to both the battery and the starter (yes, I had the intake off in 20 degree weather!). It's to the point where I can pop the intake and yank out the starter within 15 minutes- But I'm not sure that is neccessarily a good thing What is the track record of the starter solenoids for these cars? Even though the starter is a new ('Gold' Reman), is it possible the solenoid could be bad or on it's way out? I am certain the click is the starter solenoid since it's coming from somewhere under the intake. If it was the starter relay or the VAT, I would hear nothing more than perhaps a faint click from the relay on the rocker panel. It sounds like the solenoid is actually throwing the bendix gear into the flywheel, but the flywheel (starter) doesn't turn. If I keep hitting start, I will keep getting that same sound until evetually, I will get it to turn over. There is plenty of juice otherwise (I can arc weld with the battery ) so I am running out of ideas. In my mind, I am thinking it is either the starter solenoid or something with the secondary start wire going to the solenoid (the wire itself is in good shape- Not brittle and the connection is clean and tight as well). This problem seems to get worse as the temperature drops, but I don't think it's temperature specifically that is causing the problem. It happens when it's +30 or -15F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjhat Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Do cadillac starters have a need for shims ? I know that some vehicles require them to get the clearance right between the starter and flywheel. Actually, on some vehicles if you leave the shims out and their needed, they can produce exactly these symtoms due to the gear binding against the flywheel. To many, and the starter will gring against the flywheel. If you leave the starter hanging loose, will it spin every time you turn the key? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjtjwdad Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 If it is a re-man is could still be highly suspect as re-manning starters is not rocket science and the quality control can be questionable sometimes.... I don't know if this helps but over the years I have been burned by rebuilt/remanufactured starters and to a lesser extent, alternators. The main reason is I have had several instances with my Trans Am suffering from starter drag with a hot/warmed up engine. I have yet to find a way to duplicate this condition on a test bench. And changing those starters is a PITN ... litterly. So unless I am DIW/DOR I will not buy them. Same goes for water pumps etc .... Wish I had something else to add to assist with your problem. Jim White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezobens Posted February 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 I appreciate everyones feedback on this problem! I think I have narrowed it down to the starter itself (starter or the solenoid). I drove the car to work yesterday- In the morning, the starter clicked a few times again but then engaged. After work (it was about +25 F) I tried to start the car and just clicks again. After a couple of minutes of trying to get it to engage, I popped the hood and disconnected the purple solenoid wire from the harness. With the ignition key set to 'on' I used a piece of 14 gauge house wire to jumper the purple wire directly to the positive terminal of the battery. The first 2 tries only gave me the click but the 3rd try started the car. So now I know 100% that it's starter related since the rest of the circuit was removed from the scenario. My only question now is: Do I get an entire new starter or just the solenoid? From the manual, it appears that the solenoid doesn't come by itself, but comes as a unit with the Bendix and the nose assembly. If this is the case, it would probably be more cost effective to just replace the entire thing? If I get the whole unit- Where do I get the best one? GM usually doesn't sell 'Brand New' starters or alternators these days so do I go with AC-Delco or?? Any reccomendations on where to get the best quality starter? Thanks again! Elm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezobens Posted February 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 OK- I yanked the starter again last night (darn I'm getting good at this!) and pulled it apart. Of course, with it out of the car, it works just fine using a set of jumper cables to the battery. Unfortuantely, the solenoid on these things no longer can be opened- It's a steel housing that is crimped around the end with the terminals. There is no way to open it without destroying it. Unfortuantely as well, I can't seem to find anyone that just sells a solenoid for the PG-250 starter. Everyone (including GM) wants to sell me an entire reman starter for the tune of $200 or more. Why is it you can't buy NEW starters outright for virtually any car these days? Anyway, all the connections are clean and tight and I checked the solenoid the best I could with a VOM- Which of course checks out just fine. I also ran the starter directly, without the solenoid, and that seems to be 100% as well. Since I couldn't locate just a solenoid, I put everything back together and put it back in the car. As expected, it started right up. Since we are expecting a minor snow storm today, I didn't drive the car for fear of being stranded in a snow bank. I will try to start it again tonight to see how it behaves. I still feel it's solenoid related, but since I can't find a replacement, I may end up biting the bullet for an entire starter. Any ideas where I can buy just a solenoid?! Thanks! Elm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Everyone (including GM) wants to sell me an entire reman starter for the tune of $200 or more. There are two "new" ones on eBay right now; one's at $70 with 6 hours remaining, the other has a $95 buy-it-now price. BTW, does anyone know what's different about the 2001+ Northstar starters? Are they backwards compatible? ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
careldo Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 in my 24 years of repairing and modifiying cars and being at one time a licenced mechanic i can tell you i have seen many rebuilt starters fail to start a car immediately after installation.As Guru said qaulity control can some times be questionable.General speaking the longer the warrenty offered the better the rebuild shoiuld be. my money is on the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
careldo Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 in my 24 years of repairing and modifiying cars and being at one time a licenced mechanic i can tell you i have seen many rebuilt starters fail to start a car immediately after installation.As Guru said qaulity control can some times be questionable.General speaking the longer the warrenty offered the better the rebuild shoiuld be. my money is on the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
careldo Posted February 5, 2004 Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 OOOPS sorry about the double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezobens Posted February 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2004 Thanks for everyone's input (and that e-bay tip)! The $95 one was BRAND NEW (not reman) so I picked it up. We will see.... At least no core charge! I will keep you guys posted. Thanks again! Elm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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