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So I have a 2004 CTS with the 3.6 VVT V6. The car ran great when I first bought it. It then started to get a knock. Not all the time though. Only when it was fully warmed up and even then it wouldn't do it everytime. I didn't drive it very much due to that. Well it really started to get bad. I will say when I first got this car I could always hear the timing chain. No rattiling but I could hear it. Well I took it to a shop and they wanted to charge 2K for repairs. That's with the parts and supplies I supplied. So I did it myself. I do have a degree in diesel technology. No I am not the best of the best. When I need help I seek it. So I pulled the timing cover off (after draining it) and it didn't look very bad. Looked like it had recently been changed. So since I had the chains off and valve covers off I changed out the lifters too cause I did have a weak lifter. I put everything by the book. (shop manual) Well I heard the normal chain rattle when it first starts and nothing bad. But then it started to misfire badly. Check the codes and It's all on the drivers side bank. So tore it down again and rechecked everything. It was good. Put it back together. Started it same thing Normal chain rattle at start up, ran okay then started misfiring again. I've Changed out every sensor that would be related to this issue. All that's left is changing out the VVT Timing Solenoids. And checking the timing yet again. If someone could help me out, that would be great. Again I maybe a tech but no one is perfect. Best to make mistakes on your own stuff then the customers right?

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why yes. I replaced the Camshaft sensors, Upstream O2 sensors, Has new Fuel injectors. All new lifters. The timing chain set came from Rockauto.com. The kit included the guides. And I replaced the Crankshaft sensor. I will state when I was locking the flexplate to torque the harmonic balancer on I forgot to disconnect the battery. Yeah sparks. I hit the starter. So I don't know if I fired some wires or what. I've looked all over this car for signs of bad wires. I do own a mulimeter so I can check the wiring. Or should I say snakepit of wires. Before I did this work I changed out all of the spark plugs. Three new coils. It's had a history of misfires but not like this. It didn't run like that before. I will also state that when I pulled out the VVT solenoids I could see sediment on them. Atleast one. Looks like sand to me which I don't know how that would've gotten in there.  As for the history on this car they did do a Decarbonizer on it. But theres no history on if it had the timing chain replaced. A lot of suspension work and a new radiator. Melling is the Timing set. Came with the chains, guides, tensors, and sprockets.

Edited by Bosscaddy85
Forgot a part

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How long does it run "OK"?

Is it running bad when it gets into closed loop? Or is it before, while it is still in open loop?

Verify the O2 sensor circuit?

The knock & miss sounds like maybe oil starvation. Pretty coincidental you have both symptoms.

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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It hardly ever runs okay once I first start it up after working on it. Initial start up its okay but like maybe 3 seconds it starts to misfire. It goes from open loop to closed then to open loop 1 then open loop 2 and stays. How would I verify the o2 sensor circuit? As for the oil starvation, would be due to a bad oil pump?

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I was thinking you should verify that the wiring is good to the 02 sensors. Watch pre cat O2 and post cat O2 activity.

You indicated,

20 hours ago, Bosscaddy85 said:

Looked like it had recently been changed.

19 hours ago, Bosscaddy85 said:

I could see sediment on them. Atleast one. Looks like sand to me which I don't know how that would've gotten in there.

It could mean nothing, or something could be restricting oil flow in the lifter oil passage. Could be a weak pump or restricted pump inlet screen. I don't know the oil path but maybe drivers side gets oil last. I'm thinking someone has done something to this engine. Who knows, could be gasket material in the pick up screen or in supply passage to drivers side.

 

20 hours ago, Bosscaddy85 said:

Check the codes and It's all on the drivers side bank.

This sounds like lack of oil due to a restricted oil passage. Something changed when you replaced the lifters.

Make sure the plugs aren't damaged. Check the wiring to the ignition coil packs. Swap packs to other side see if anything changes.

Run the engine with the drivers side valve cover off and see if the oil flow looks good.

I'm guessing the timing marks are "dead on"... ?


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Yeah the timing is dead on. It wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't mess with this engine before. The coil packs I had replaced didn't last long. So I'm just going to replace them all. Make it easy. Would it be okay if I put an engine flush through this car or would it mess things up more?

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I'm starting to think more along the line of VVT. The "sludge" situation keeps nagging at me. These VVT cam actuators are VERY susceptible to damage from dirty oil / sludge.

Monitor valve timing if your scan tool has the capability, maybe bad cam phaser. Did you remove the cam plates when you replaced the chain? Are there any cam position codes?

The camshaft plates do move. You need to check for a spun crankshaft actuator or damaged reluctor plate. If all is lined up under the chain cover and no sign of spun actuators or misalignment, then look at the camshaft actuators. Also, consider the following... engine oil quality will have an effect on this VVT system operation. SO... If sludge is found, in these  cam actuators, engine replacement will be needed. Flushing the engine will only further clog the system.  

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Do you have access to All-Data through you diesel repair work ?


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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I do not. I can see the timing on my scan too. It goes from 16 to like 5 then to 8 then back up. The codes are P0019, P0018, P009. The rest are misfires. I forgot to mention that I replaced the crankshaft sensor too. I'm curious as to where the crankshaft actuators are. Are you talking about the vvt solenoids? I didn't remove the cam plates. 

Edited by Bosscaddy85

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P0009 CADILLAC - Engine Positions System Performance Bank 2

P0009 - The ECM detects that both camshafts on either bank of the engine are mis-aligned with the crankshaft for more than 4 seconds or a cumulative of 50 seconds.

The Engine Control Module (ECM) monitors the position of both camshafts and the crankshaft. The ECM performs a test for misalignment between both camshafts on one bank of the engine and the crankshaft. During the test the ECM learns the position of the camshafts and the crankshaft. While the engine is idling, the ECM compares the position of both the camshafts and the crankshaft with the learned value. The ECM will set the P0008 code if both learned values for one bank of the engine are exceeding a calibrated threshold in the same direction.

P0018 -

If the PCM detects that the crank and cam signals are out of time by a specific number of degrees, this DTC will set. Bank 2 is the side of the engine that DOES NOT  contain cylinder #1, the "A" sensor is most likely the intake camshaft side. 

04CTS.gif

CamAct.gif

P-0019 - If the PCM detects that the crank and cam signals are out of time by a specific number of degrees, this DTC will set. Bank 2 is the side of the engine that contains cylinder #1, the "B" sensor is most likely the exhaust camshaft side.

Unfortunately, these codes indicate a basic timing problem.

I would pull the cam actuator solenoids and check for more sludge.

The crankshaft tone ring is on the back of the crank near the rear main, I was thinking it was at the front, so you can probably disregard that.

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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So I have bad news. I did check the VVT's and there is more sludge on them. But when I went to crank it this time around It stopped dead. Afraid I just totaled this engine. This car has given me nothing but bad luck. May just rip this engine out and put something in it way more reliable. Thinking a 350 lol. Yes custom work but it would run. No overhead cam junk. Kidding aside, I'm not very happy with this car. Not only does it have engine issue's but the Rear Dynamic portioning valve code keeps popping up. 

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Oh My!

That is a zero clearance engine :(

If it's any consolation to you the sludge alone was crying new engine time. I know it bites...

2005 CTS-V  -  LS-6 motor

Edited by OldCadTech

THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Yeah I always knew something would go wrong. The car did start. So maybe it just bent a valve. I’ve done in frame rebuilds before but I’m gonna drain it. And pull the oil pan off and see if anything is laying in the pan. Car cost me 4,200 and a new engine could run more then that but heck my truck costs more then what it’s worth but I love it. 

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Was it running when it locked, or was it turning with the starter motor?

 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Okay that sounds like an out of time problem. If it started you didn't bend or break anything.


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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Yeah just gave me a heart attack. Every time that happens I freak. Yay break down again. This time I taking the oil pan off and cleaning it out and inspecting the bottom end. It will be a while before it runs again but I have the tools to do it. Just no shop space lol. More car parts in my bedroom! lol.

Edited by Bosscaddy85

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Sorry That I haven't replied in a while. I just got a new job and life has been crazy. Barely have time to work on this car. I plan to work on it when I have time. Hopefully soon cause I love this car. I'm going to be more picky about it this time. Already have a check list and everything laid out. If the part isn't up to par then it will be replaced. Being mostly controlled by electronics well just replace it. Wish me luck. 

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Sounds like a plan :) Keep us posted 


THERE IS ALWAYS ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH TIME TO DO THE JOB AGAIN !!!

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