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WarrenJ

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http://washingtontimes.com/autoweekend/200...11505-9312r.htm

"According to research performed by Edmunds.com, hybrid owners can find themselves spending as much as $5,000 more for their vehicle than for a traditional counterpart, when driven for five years."

"To make this point clearer, a comparison was made between the Toyota Prius and Toyota Corolla. The total cost for a five-year ownership of the Prius is estimated to be $37,893, while a Corolla LE would be $32,610. This includes fuel prices and tax credits and shows that the Prius would be significantly more expensive to own. The same comparison was made between a Prius and more expensive Camry LE and in that case the advantage fell to the Prius, but only by $81."

"Honda Accord Hybrid owners, for instance, would break even (over the Accord EX V-6) after 60,000 miles, but only if gasoline cost $9.20 per gallon."

Thoughts to ponder . . . .

Regards,

Warren

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There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises

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The batteries in the hybrids have a lifespan of 5-6 years. When they go bad, the cost of the batteries exceeds the value of the car...

Kevin
'93 Fleetwood Brougham
'05 Deville
'04 Deville
2013 Silverado Z71

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My feeling is the hybrid gasoline-electric application is a 'feel good' purchase for most buyers. Not a cost effective long term alternative to the fossil fuel situation.

Some think the future will embrace the all-electric vehicle whether that is a hydrogen cell or the next level of battery technology depends on a large number of variables.

Personally, I believe we are waiting for a break through in battery technology that will deliver much more than a 100 mile range with fast charge capability and affordable battery replacement cost.

Jim

Drive your car.

Use your cell phone.

CHOOSE ONE !

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The batteries in the hybrids have a lifespan of 5-6 years. When they go bad, the cost of the batteries exceeds the value of the car...

Yes, I think that's probably true. In fact, the cost of new batteries will almost guarantee it.

The sad part is that it will be the third or fourth owner who, understandably, can't afford a new battery sled. I'd guess we might see an increase of vehicles abandoned at the side of the road. Who'll pay for that recycling?

Regards,

Warren

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There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises

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1] My feeling is the hybrid gasoline-electric application is a 'feel good' purchase for most buyers. Not a cost effective long term alternative to the fossil fuel situation.

2] Some think the future will embrace the all-electric vehicle whether that is a hydrogen cell or the next level of battery technology depends on a large number of variables.

3] Personally, I believe we are waiting for a break through in battery technology that will deliver much more than a 100 mile range with fast charge capability and affordable battery replacement cost.

Please forgive my liberty in editing your comments. And thanks for making them so cogent as to have been so easily editable. Not a word was changed. I only added the x].

1] Yep.

2] All-electric, I'm inclined to think not. Fuel cell technology seems a little more likely.

3] From my readings regarding the current battery technologies, I'm not expecting spectacular gains.

One thing is certain however, there *will* be a new technology. And you and I would be soon wealthy if only we knew what it might be. :D

Regards,

Warren

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There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises

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The batteries in the hybrids have a lifespan of 5-6 years. When they go bad, the cost of the batteries exceeds the value of the car...

Yeah, I'd hate to be the poor uneducated, unsuspecting S.O.B. that gets that rude awakening. I suspect when they get to that age and the public starts to find out about this little secret, dealers won't be able to give them away. :lol:

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Yeah, I'd hate to be the poor uneducated, unsuspecting S.O.B. that gets that rude awakening. I suspect when they get to that age and the public starts to find out about this little secret, dealers won't be able to give them away. :lol:

Counterfeiting one hundred dollar bills is certainly profitable, but what if a used car dealer could counterfeit a battery replacement certificate? Maybe just backdate it a few months? WOW! New employment for those guys who used to do odometers?

Regards,

Warren

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There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises

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a coworker bought a prius last summer. i asked him if the a/c works while the gas engine does not run and he said he never uses the a/c. i know he has a 30 mile commute and they say that the highway mpg on the prius is not that great. i think around town at slow speeds is where the batteries come into play. I never did ask him how the heat is during the winter. maybe it has an electric heater.

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YOU ALSO CAN`T RECYCLE THOSE BATTERIES. WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GO......SO MUCH FOR HELPING THE ENVIRONMENT. HELLO SUCKER, YOU JUST HAPPEN TO BE COMING AROUND AT THE RIGHT TIME, STEP RIGHT UP.

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YOU ALSO CAN`T RECYCLE THOSE BATTERIES. WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GO......SO MUCH FOR HELPING THE ENVIRONMENT. HELLO SUCKER, YOU JUST HAPPEN TO BE COMING AROUND AT THE RIGHT TIME, STEP RIGHT UP.

This was my concern. What is going to happen with all of the batteries and the leaching into the ground that will happen? Wait for the first MAJOR accident where batteries explode and throw acid on occupants the tree huggers will be litigating and demanding safer hybrids..

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There has already been issues with the batteries on these cars in some areas theres been issues with people getting shocked to death by these cars and with that give theres area where people wont even consider working on them -

Michael

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From a consumer's point of view:

The recycle issue is only one of the variables I did not specify in my earlier post. If battery powered all electric passenger vehicles have any hope of replacing the fossil fueled engine, the next quantum leap in battery technology must deal with all these issues plus more.

The ability to recycle all or most of the battery elements would be very important.

The ability to replace (only) defective cells in a battery package is important.

The ability to limit battery gassing during charge, standardization of external charging plug arrangement, light weight packaging, commonality / availabilty of standard cells, add-your-favorite-issue here.

The infrastructure to charge batteries (almost) anywhere is in place. Put a meter on a 120V outlet and there is your 'gas' station; swipe your card here.

Jim

Drive your car.

Use your cell phone.

CHOOSE ONE !

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Well Folks,

I agree with all the concerns of the conventional batteries; electrocution, acid spills, longevity/cost and environmental disposal. And, then of course is there any significant energy or dollar savings when the manufacture, infrastructure support and true cost of ownership are accurately quantified?

However, I also think any hybrid technology has get to started in a competitive marketplace - before it will get any better. Look at how far the Internal Combustion engine has come along and what marketplace conditions were required to force innovative progress in spurts and sputters.

Considering the near-instant 100% torque contribution from a relatively small electric motor, we might all enjoy the quicker off-the-line improvement with a well-engineered combination of electric motor and IC engine.

What I would like to see is the improved recovery of the energy required to stop our vehicles - now wasted as heat to the brakes. I realize some hybrids use braking to generate power. Perhaps the drive train can be used to spin an engineered flywheel up to speed and then reverse the process to get going again. Think of winding up a huge rubber band as you stop and then releasing it to start with the engine kicking in to maintain cruising. Flywheels are more efficient than chemical batteries and consider the following:

A flywheel, in essence is a mechanical battery - simply a mass rotating about an axis. Flywheels store energy mechanically in the form of kinetic energy. They take an electrical input to accelerate the rotor up to speed by using the built-in motor, and return the electrical energy by using this same motor as a generator. Flywheels are one of the oldest and most common mechanical devises in existence. They may still prove to serve us as an important component on tomorrow's vehicles and future energy needs. Flywheels are one of the most promising technologies for replacing conventional lead acid batteries as energy storage systems for a variety of applications, including automobiles, economical rural electrification systems, and stand-alone, remote power units commonly used in the telecommunications industry. Recent advances in the mechanical properties of composites has rekindled interest in using the inertia of a spinning wheel to store energy.

In addition to energy density, flywheel energy storage systems (FES) also offer several important advantages over chemical energy storage. The rate at which energy can be exchanged into or out of the battery is limited only by the motor--generator design. Therefore, it is possible to withdraw large amounts of energy in a far shorter time than with traditional chemical batteries. Indeed, research into exploiting this property of FES systems to get short, intense bursts of energy is ongoing with the most notable projects being a magnetic tank gun and a fusion ignition system. Of course it is also possible to quickly charge FES batteries making them desirable for application in electric cars where the charge time could be dropped from a matter of hours to a matter of minutes.

Advantages: Flywheels store energy very efficiently (high turn-around efficiency) and have the potential for very high specific power compared with batteries. Flywheels have very high output potential and relatively long life. Flywheels are relatively unaffected by ambient temperature extremes.

Disadvantages: Current flywheels have low specific energy. There are safety concerns associated with flywheels due to their high speed rotor and the possibility of it breaking loose and releasing all of it's energy in an uncontrolled manner. Flywheels are a less mature technology than chemical batteries, and the current cost is too high to make them competitive in the market.

Wind it up baby!

Oh yea, I forgot to mention. I headed up using what I was told was the world's first commercial-industrial application of a bonofide superconductor. We used liquid-helium (with a refrigeration system) to super-cool a niobium-wire proprietary magnet system. It was in turn charged/discharged by a variable speed drive (all inside a 48'-foot trailer) to run a 400-hp 4,160-volt electric motor for up to 15-seconds during total power outages. Talk about Gaussian fields through the 6' tall x 3' wide cryogenic container ! Used it for over 5-years at $$,$$$ per month until we engineered flying restarts.

Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning.
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Are there gyroscopic effects assosciated with a flywheel energy storage system?

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There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises

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Hybrids are good in theory but the EPA is tricking everyone with the stated Mpg. They do all the testing with all accessories off as soon as you turn on the AC or heater the gas engine starts. Like it was said hwy MPG is worse than the counter part with only gas. If you live in a mild climate and only drive in town you might save some fuel but not worth the price of admission. I just saw a couple of the top guys for the company I work for driving the Lexus RX400Hs they each have one. These guys are making some kind of statement. LOL

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WarrenJ,

A valid question regarding flywheels and gyroscopic effects. We don't need vehicles "piloted by precession".

Removing the Gyroscopic Moment

If the equations for angular momentum and gyroscopic moment are truly independent, can we separate angular moment from gyroscopic moment in a flywheel? The answer is “Yes” - simply ensure the mass travels in a circular path, but does not rotate.

Imagine a flywheel which is simply a frame that carries two masses which are free to rotate independently on their own axles. Then add some gearing that makes the two masses counter-rotate slowly in the opposite sense to the frame’s rotation. This is at a much lower rotation rate than the frame’s rotation, just enough to offset the small gyroscopic moment of the frame. With the right gearing the frame’s gyroscopic moment will be annulled by the masses’ counter-moment and you will have a flywheel with plenty of angular moment, but no gyroscopic moment.

Many other arrangements are possible - two contra-rotating flywheels close to each other on the same axis will do the trick; the gyroscopic moments cancel out but the angular moments add.

The application of such a device is to engines in high-performance machines. For example the engines in small aircraft have such a high gyroscopic moment that they can affect the handling of the aircraft, and longitudinally- mounted engines in racing cars can affect maneuverability.

And a interesting link relating to the subject I noted:

http://medlicott.uk.com/bus/flywheel.htm

Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning.
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I just saw a couple of the top guys for the company I work for driving the Lexus RX400Hs they each have one. These guys are making some kind of statement. LOL

Nice... It had been my understanding that Lexus just uses electric motors as performance enhancement rather than to save fuel. Just went to their website, and I guess the -h models to get better gas mileage, though Lexus doesn't tout the fuel economy of their hybrids:

GS430 (4.3L V8) 0-60: 5.7s MPG: 18/25

GS450h (3.6L V6) 0-60: 5.2s MPG: 25/28

-Chris

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I like the hybrid technology itself. But I get frustrated how the media (and the automakers) tend to tout it as the greenest thing since grass, and those automakers get lots of street cred for it, and domestic automakers really get chastised.

I think the pendulum is started to swing back, though. Prius sales are off about 25% recently. Hybrids in general aren't selling that well lately. Alternative fuels are gaining ground big-time, and that's something Japan hasn't invested in AT ALL. They have no mainstream alternative-fueled vehicles, except for some hydrogen prototypes like everyone else has. They may be left holding the bag if biofuels start to take off here like they have in some other countries.

Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond)

"When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?"

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  • 5 months later...

Found this on Ward's "10 Best Engines of 2006"

http://wardsdealer.com/ar/auto_wards_best_...s_11/index.html

The Hybrid Honeymoon Is Over

By Drew Winter

Harsh reality is settling in. After winning 10 Best Engines awards in 2004 and 2005, no hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) powertrain made our list this year. Chalk it up to rising expectations and a declining gee-whiz factor.

In other words, our honeymoon with hybrids is over.

Environmentalists say HEVs are the magic bullet that will save the auto industry as well as the atmosphere. Auto makers are charging hefty premiums for the technology. In that light, the HEVs we tested this year are as good as ever, but not living up to their own hype.

We have been duly impressed in the past, naming Toyota Motor Corp. HEVs to the 10-Best Engines list twice and Honda Motor Co. Ltd.'s system once.

In 2001, we were thrilled with the way Toyota brought HEV technology to the practical Prius sedan in a relatively transparent fashion. In 2004 we were awed by how much Toyota improved the system.

Last year, judges were wowed by the way Honda's sophisticated Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid system dispelled the myth that HEVs have to be slow and boring.

This year we could not ignore a few shortcomings.

First among our complaints, pointed out by a growing number of disgruntled owners, is real-world fuel economy far less than what is advertised.

Second, fuel economy is affected too much by driving style and ambient temperature.

The Lexus 400h is the epitome of luxury and environmental friendliness when we moved silently through stop-and-go traffic on full electric power. But once the vehicle's internal combustion engine gets involved with propulsion, we were less impressed. During hard acceleration it doesn't have the premium sound we expect from a vehicle with a base price approaching $50,000. Plus, we were underwhelmed with our 25 mpg average.

NASA astronaut Ken Mattingly spent tedious hours in a flight simulator figuring out a start-up sequence that used only 20 amps for an energy-starved Apollo 13. That made for compelling drama in a movie.

Employing the same power-saving tactics just to squeeze out something close to the EPA mileage from a Civic Hybrid on a cold day is a bit less engaging.

Want something close to its alleged 49/51 mpg on a frosty morning? Forget about warming up the engine or using the defroster. Scrape the windows by hand, stay off the throttle and the expressway and get ready to shiver.

Enduring that kind of inconvenience is fine if you need to get back from space with your fuel cells spent, but not when you're just heading to work.

Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1  >>

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How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/

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