Northstar rebuild help?

[cacsmret]

Can anyone suggest a good, detailed rebuild manual which describes rebuilding a Northstar? I just purchased a wrecked '94 Eldorado with 170 K on it. I want to pull the Northstar and transplant it into my '67 Deville.

thanks,

Kevin

[TDK]

cacsmret,

I'm not trying to be a smart-a here, but "You can't get there from here". There is really no "reasonable" way to transplant a NorthStar into a 67 Deville without taking most of the computer and power train with the engine.

True, there have been a handful of swaps of a NorthStar etc into some odd vehicles. But those were done by experienced shops familiar with all the requirements and I believe they used some special wiring harnesses etc. I recall that one was into a Volkswagen GTI, an engineering marvel.

You might look through the archives or perhaps someone else can help you find those swaps.

It is difficult enough to stay within the various year-generations of Northstars and their related applications, STS, SLS, Deville, Eldo/ETC, etc

You might be better off with a small or big-block Chevy engine that has probably been done many times before. However, you might also want to consider a rebuild to keep it all Caddy.

Search on the subject - but good luck

[zonie77]

The factory service manual is what you'll need. But...why do you think it needs to be rebuilt? Can you start the engine now? Northstars are expensive to rebuild (compared to SBC at least). They can go 300K without a rebuild if they had any kind of maintainance.

The skill to put it in a 67 DeVille is substantial. Just asking about the manual makes me think you don't have the experience to do it in a reasonable time. It isn't a project to learn fabrication on.

The N* is 281 cubic inches. Is this the right engine for the DeVille? I would say NO. A well built Caddy V8 (425-472-500) with an overdrive trans would be a lot more sensible. What's wrong with the engine in the DeVille now?

It could be done...but you're converting a transverse mounted engine to longitudinal, that's some extra work. The Eldo trans won't work unless you want to convert to FWD...Is that what you're thinking?

[mikeal1892]

Can anyone suggest a good, detailed rebuild manual which describes rebuilding a Northstar? I just purchased a wrecked '94 Eldorado with 170 K on it. I want to pull the Northstar and transplant it into my '67 Deville.

thanks,

Kevin

cacsmret,

I'm not trying to be a smart-a here, but "You can't get there from here". There is really no "reasonable" way to transplant a NorthStar into a 67 Deville without taking most of the computer and power train with the engine.

True, there have been a handful of swaps of a NorthStar etc into some odd vehicles. But those were done by experienced shops familiar with all the requirements and I believe they used some special wiring harnesses etc. I recall that one was into a Volkswagen GTI, an engineering marvel.

You might look through the archives or perhaps someone else can help you find those swaps.

It is difficult enough to stay within the various year-generations of Northstars and their related applications, STS, SLS, Deville, Eldo/ETC, etc

You might be better off with a small or big-block Chevy engine that has probably been done many times before. However, you might also want to consider a rebuild to keep it all Caddy.

Search on the subject - but good luck

The factory service manual is what you'll need. But...why do you think it needs to be rebuilt? Can you start the engine now? Northstars are expensive to rebuild (compared to SBC at least). They can go 300K without a rebuild if they had any kind of maintainance.

The skill to put it in a 67 DeVille is substantial. Just asking about the manual makes me think you don't have the experience to do it in a reasonable time. It isn't a project to learn fabrication on.

The N* is 281 cubic inches. Is this the right engine for the DeVille? I would say NO. A well built Caddy V8 (425-472-500) with an overdrive trans would be a lot more sensible. What's wrong with the engine in the DeVille now?

It could be done...but you're converting a transverse mounted engine to longitudinal, that's some extra work. The Eldo trans won't work unless you want to convert to FWD...Is that what you're thinking?

Sounds like alot of serious work !

Michael

[cacsmret]

Thanks for the responses. I was merely looking for a simple answer to my simple question. I assume that Chiltons, or Motor do not cover the Northstar and that the FSM is the bible. Yes this is quite a challenge, retrofitting a magnificent NS into an older generation Caddi. I understand the NS is a smaller cubic inch displacement than the gas guzzling 429 that is currently in the car. I haven't seen the DTS or STS winning any awards lately for being lightweight. I can tell you I was amazed at the Northstar's performance in my second Eldorado, even getting 30+ mpg highway driving. My first Eldorado was a 500 ci, 1976 model. I think the Northstar is an engineering masterpiece, and I understand its complexity. I have seen the NS transplanted into Fiero's, sandrails, Camaro's, and even Jeep rock crawlers. I think with the low first gear of the 700R4 (4L60), and the overdrive capability of the transmission, the Northstar will have no problem propelling the Deville.

There are many others who make a living offering adapters and kits to place the Northstar/700R4 combination into equipment other than a Cadillac.

RWD Northstar configurations

Northstar/700R4 photo(Photo copyright by Bendtsen's Fabrication)

I would hope that forum readers would not question my mechanical ability by reading into one simple question posted in this forum. Yes, this is a daunting task, however, if successful, I will have something few can equal, and BTW, I will have a great weekend cruiser worthy of generating show and shine discussions as people see the retrofit. If I fail, I'm out $330 for the '67 Deville, and $600 for the wrecked donor '94 Eldorado, both purchased on ebay. I can probably recoup my money by parting out the Eldorado once I remove the NS, wiring harness, and ECM. Either way I will gain the satisfaction of at least giving it a go, and thinking outside the box.

Yes, the donor Northstar runs and drives. Sadly, the previous owner backed it into a tree at a high rate of speed. The engine has 170K on it, and my thought is, why not go through it when it is out of the car, perhaps then it will last for 300k miles more.

Yes, I could drop an alternative engine into the Deville such as a Chevy, but where's the challenge? I kind of like the prospect of dropping the Northstar into something else. At least I'm keeping it in the same family by attempting to retrofit it into another Caddi. Heck, even the the Corporate Cadillac exec's dropped the Northstar into something else when they shoehorned it into a Corvette clone.

[chazglenn3]

I applaud your "thinking outside the box". This will be an amazing vehicle for both weekend cruising and the car shows. The N* will likely propel the DeVille better than the old pushrod 429. Keep us posted on your progress!

Charles

[cacsmret]

Here are a few more websites that offer interesting reading. If I can't get the N* fuel injection to work, which I'm pretty sure I can, I can always go carburated.

Northstar Conversions

Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators

Kevin

[zonie77]

You either get more than you asked for or less than you asked for on a forum! Don't expect a simple answer.

The Factory manual is usually the best on any car for detailed info.

Your initial question left it open to you ability...you seem to know what you're getting into so Keep us posted on this project.

I still recommend leaving the engine as is. Parts are expensive and the engine should be in good shape even with that mileage. I'd just reseal it if there's any evidence of leaks and put the effort into getting it running. Rebuild it later if it needs it.

Take pics. It's hard to take enough when you are doing the work yourself, but take some.

[BodybyFisher]

I applaud your "thinking outside the box". This will be an amazing vehicle for both weekend cruising and the car shows. The N* will likely propel the DeVille better than the old pushrod 429. Keep us posted on your progress!

Charles

Obviously you have never driven an "old push rod" 429, when it was NEW.... THAT was my favorite engine...

Bore and stroke: 4.13 x 4.00 inches

Compression ratio: 10.5:1

Brake horsepower: 340 @ 4600 rpm

Five main bearings

Hydraulic valve lifters

Carburetor: Rochester four-barrel type, model 7026030

This was stated in 1965 > Though Cadillac's V-8 was unchanged, the slightly lighter '65s offered the luxury market's best power-to-weight ratio speaking of the 429...

Stated in 1967 for the Eldo >> An Eldorado could have only Cadillac power, so the division's 429 V-8, new for '64, was modified for front drive with a new oil pan, exhaust manifolds, accessory drive, and engine mounts. Output was the same as for other '67 Cadillacs: 340 horsepower and 480 pounds/feet torque with four-barrel carburetor and a 10.5:1 compression ratio.

[BodybyFisher]

The reason I like the NS?, is because it reminds me of the 429 and 472 from the 60's.... HOWEVER, the most incredible thing, is that the NS does it..... with 279 cubic inches, Wowie!

The HP measurements changed at some point, I don't know what the above HP ratings would be on the 429 if the HP measurement method was the same as they use today, anyone?...

[chazglenn3]

They changed from gross to net in 1971. I couldn't find a converter. It was said that there were too many factors that come into play. One website I looked at said "Because SAE gross ratings were applied liberally, at best, there is no precise conversion from gross to net. Comparison of gross and net ratings for unchanged engines show a variance of anywhere from 40 to 150 horsepower. The Chrysler 426 Hemi, for example, in 1971 carried a 425 hp gross rating (often considered to be underrated) and a net rating of 375 hp."

Charles

[BodybyFisher]

So if we apply the same downward adjustment, the 429 put out 290 HP, any wonder why it reminds me of the NS?

I have driven a 426 HEMI once, it was an OLD LADY'S car with a three speed on the column. I once punched it and it was SO powerful that I needed to change my shorts!

[chazglenn3]

I can believe that! My brother once owned a Plymouth GTX that had the 440 6-pack in it. What a rush!

Charles

[mailloux]

Can anyone suggest a good, detailed rebuild manual which describes rebuilding a Northstar? I just purchased a wrecked '94 Eldorado with 170 K on it. I want to pull the Northstar and transplant it into my '67 Deville.

thanks,

Kevin

if you want to highly modify your northstar go to www.chrfab.com

they go a lot of experience and they can put a bouble turbo on it custom grind your cam and everything like that go see

[Cadillac Jim]

Can anyone suggest a good, detailed rebuild manual which describes rebuilding a Northstar? I just purchased a wrecked '94 Eldorado with 170 K on it. I want to pull the Northstar and transplant it into my '67 Deville.

thanks,

Kevin

I would get the OEM shop manual for that year/model from Helm, Inc. Chilton and others offer good repair manuals that don't refer to factory special tools. I would get both and read them both thoroughly before beginning the job.

Jasper sells a remanufactured 429 for your 1967 DeVille for $3698, their part number 592410. This will likely be a real bargain compared to transplanting a Northstar into your 1967 DeVille. From the other posts I see here, the performance difference probably isn't worth what you would pay.

If you do go forward with the transplant, you might want to look at what you would use for a transmission and other issues of driveability. Caddilac Hot Rod Fabricators, which has already been mentioned here, can probalby help you with conversion of the Northstar to rear-wheel drive. On the other hand, you might just look at adapting the bolt hole patterns of the transmission you are thinking of and deal with the drive splines. Any machine shop that deals with engine swaps should be able to work with you.

[Cadillac Jim]

I can believe that! My brother once owned a Plymouth GTX that had the 440 6-pack in it. What a rush!

Charles

I once had a 1964 Chevrolet station wagon with the 250 HP small-journal 327 and a three-speed. I bought it at 87,000 miles with valve guides so bad it burnt a quart of oil every 75 miles, a ratio worse than quart-per-five-gallon outboard motor premix. With four guys in the car, I found out by surpise and accident that it was more than a match for a 440 four-barrel.

I quickly tired of it running out of oil between fillups and rebuilt the engine, with my own selection of parts, and blueprinting and balancing, and 2.5 inch exhaust with four Turbo "mufflers." We had to change out the suspension to control the car pitching up when the engine got up on the cam because you couldn't see the road over the hood. It would wound the transmission bearings on the original Borg-Warner three-speed every two weeks so we put in a heavy-duty Saginaw full-snchro heavy duty three-speed. With that, seven-inch rims from a 1968 Corvette, and CeraMetallic brakes, it never gave any more trouble. I drove it for almost 5 years and sold it to a friend. My only issue with it was that it idled at 24 mph -- in low gear, and the engine torque was a little flat below 40 mph -- in low gear. My friend replaced my 2.02 heads with 300 hp heads and pulled some other choice parts off of it and used it for a work truck. A little birdie told me a story about an incident out on a small country road. Some kid with a 440 six-pack ran his truck off the road and tried to push a 16-year-old driving my old car, loaded with cement mixing gear and construction stuff. My firend waved him on, and that kid mopped up on that MoPar all afternoon.

I built that car in 1967, and there are far better options today. The Northstar is a very good choice, and CHRFAB has the goods for off-road or pre-emissions hot street in small displacement. Check the GM Performance Catalog for other options; I like the looks of the 502 crate engines.