'97 STS Engine Removal & Repair

[JimD]

Let me see how this thin paper scans (I might be able to adjust contrast and avoid the bleed-through). If that won't work, I will try the copy route.

At the very least, this is interesting reading. And yes, the bolts are different by the time we get to '04; both length and thread pitch.

[KHE]

Jim,

I just checked my shop manual and just mentions the Timesert kit - part no. "J-whatever". There aren't any dimensions mentioned but the critical dimension is the dimension from the block deck surface to the step in the head bolt hole - that is the surface that positons the Timesert as well as locates the threaded interface to the head bolts.

I didn't do anything on the STS this evening - I needed a break.

I'll be back at it tomorrow evening. I'm going to pull the block so I can have better access to the holes, etc. At this point, I'm 75% of the way there already. I hope to have parts ordered Monday and be reassembling the engine by the end of next week.

[Dloch]

Kevin

The kit is on the way

[BodybyFisher]

I am glad you are pulling the block. I went to sleep the other night trying to imagine how you were going to drill the holes in the rear bank. Leaving the block in the car HAS to increase the level of difficulty in my mind.

[JimD]

The 2004 Service Manual engine bolt hole repair pages are scanned, Kevin. The data total is probably too much for most folk's mail server (30 M).

I have no clue how this information might apply to your possible big-sert procedure, but it sure is interesting reading. I lost count of how many times the text refers to "cleaning out the chips".

Send me a private message with a street address and I will burn a CD in a heartbeat.

[KHE]

Kevin

The kit is on the way

Great! Thanks again!

I am glad you are pulling the block. I went to sleep the other night trying to imagine how you were going to drill the holes in the rear bank. Leaving the block in the car HAS to increase the level of difficulty in my mind.

I was going to use a right angle Milwaukee drill but once the block is out, I'll just use my regular Milwaukee "Hole Shooter" 1/2" drill. Actually, with the heads off, there is quite a bit of room in there.

[BodybyFisher]

I love my Milwaukee Holeshooter, gotta stay focused with that sucker, it will break your wrist! I have never seen a drill with more torque... Best purchase I ever made..

[KHE]

I love my Milwaukee Holeshooter, gotta stay focused with that sucker, it will break your wrist! I have never seen a drill with more torque... Best purchase I ever made..

I've never seen a 1/2" drill with more torque. They are so well built that they will last several lifetimes. When the brushes wear down, the drill will stop functioning before the brushes are worn to the point that the springs gouge up the communtator. One screw and the brush cartridge pops out. Install the spare brushes and you're good to go again.

[KHE]

The engine block is out! I was going to prepare it for removal and remove it in the morning but I was far enough along, I decided to get it over with. I am now enjoying a double bourbon on the rocks...

I borrowed an engine hoist from a coworker - it had an air activated pump and an engine leveler. With those features, I was able to remove the engine myself. It was difficult to separate it from the transmission but after that, it came right out.

I'd like to rest the engine on planks under the oil pan and the front mount but am unsure if it is OK and won't damage anything.

I was able to remove the engine without removing the hood. Even though the shop manual states to remove the hood, I was concerned about damaging the hood while R&Ring it. I removed the passemger side wiper arm and the hood support cylinders and was able to open the hood to the straight vertical position. I tied the hood to my garage door track support while I removed the engine. After the engine was out, I reattached the support cylinders and closed the hood.

[BodybyFisher]

Post some pics while you are sippin that bourbon,

[Barry94]

Kevin,

You're making great progress. It's not an easy task.

I'm curious as to reinstalling the engine. Will you mount the heads and then install or

just reverse what you have done already.

With the heads mounted, the engine size grows dramatically.

Thanks

Barry

[KHE]

I am going to assemble the engine and then install it as a unit. I discovered the root cause of the failure today...the dealer that Timeserted the engine set the inserts anywhere from .200" to .350" too low in the block. As a result, almost 40% of the engagement between the head bolts and the Timeserts was lost. That is the reason that all the Timeserts were broken when I removed them - they probably broke when the dealer tech. torqued the headbolts down. The old head bolts clearly showed the lack of engagement with the Timesert.

Either the dealer tech had the stop collar on the drill misadjusted...(hard to believe since it comes from Timesert set and sealed in place) or the tech free-handed the drilling process to save time. Based on the measurements I took from the block deck surface to the shoulder in the thread bolt holes, I believe the tech. freehanded it to save time..... The Big-Serts should fix the block though.

I feel better that I know for a fact why the dealer repair failed but upset in that who knows how many Northstar engines the cretin has destroyed or is in the process of destroying......

I snapped a couple of pictures during the removal - I'll post them when I get a chance.

[jhall]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the update. I was way off base on my guess for the root cause, but good to hear you found it - actual root cause appears to be incompetence as opposed to a mechanical fault.

You should avoid placing the engine weight on the oil pan. Use wood blocks to support the engine. If you absolutely have to place weight on the pan, keep it at the edges so the center of the pan is not damaged.

It recommend an engine stand to support the engine. This makes it so much easier to do the job and you can rotate each cylinder bank just past the horizontal position when you're doing the Timesert work. Put a pan under the engine stand and all the chips, cleaner and oil will be caught before it hits the floor. Much less mess and less chance of chips getting in the engine.

As you've already indicated, put the engine back together completely and then reinstall. It's heavier, but it will still go in with a bit more muscle.

Keep up the good work.

Kevin,

A quick clarification - leave the intake manifold off unril the the engine is back in the car. Use duct tape to cover the intake ports on the heads.

[Ranger]

Kevin,

The worst part is, that in the eyes of the dealer and mechanic, it was repaired properly and still failed. Hence the "throw away", "unrepairable" engines.

[navion]

I am going to assemble the engine and then install it as a unit. I discovered the root cause of the failure today...the dealer that Timeserted the engine set the inserts anywhere from .200" to .350" too low in the block. As a result, almost 40% of the engagement between the head bolts and the Timeserts was lost. That is the reason that all the Timeserts were broken when I removed them - they probably broke when the dealer tech. torqued the headbolts down. The old head bolts clearly showed the lack of engagement with the Timesert.

Either the dealer tech had the stop collar on the drill misadjusted...(hard to believe since it comes from Timesert set and sealed in place) or the tech free-handed the drilling process to save time. Based on the measurements I took from the block deck surface to the shoulder in the thread bolt holes, I believe the tech. freehanded it to save time..... The Big-Serts should fix the block though.

I feel better that I know for a fact why the dealer repair failed but upset in that who knows how many Northstar engines the cretin has destroyed or is in the process of destroying......

I snapped a couple of pictures during the removal - I'll post them when I get a chance.

That "tech" that did that sloppy work probably did the job in record time, and probably got a "pat on the back" from the service manager!

I wouldn't let my local Caddy dealer work on a Briggs and Stratton, let alone a North Star!

Britt

[KHE]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the update. I was way off base on my guess for the root cause, but good to hear you found it - actual root cause appears to be incompetence as opposed to a mechanical fault.

You should avoid placing the engine weight on the oil pan. Use wood blocks to support the engine. If you absolutely have to place weight on the pan, keep it at the edges so the center of the pan is not damaged.

It recommend an engine stand to support the engine. This makes it so much easier to do the job and you can rotate each cylinder bank just past the horizontal position when you're doing the Timesert work. Put a pan under the engine stand and all the chips, cleaner and oil will be caught before it hits the floor. Much less mess and less chance of chips getting in the engine.

As you've already indicated, put the engine back together completely and then reinstall. It's heavier, but it will still go in with a bit more muscle.

Keep up the good work.

Kevin,

A quick clarification - leave the intake manifold off unril the the engine is back in the car. Use duct tape to cover the intake ports on the heads.

The coworker that I borrowed the hoist from also has a stand - I'll pick that up next week. I definitely will leave the intake manifold off until the engine is back in the car - The shop manual says to do that and it makes perfect sense as it keeps the MAF/throttle body from hitting anything during installation. I will also cover the intake ports during installation. Thanks for encouragement!

Kevin,

The worst part is, that in the eyes of the dealer and mechanic, it was repaired properly and still failed. Hence the "throw away", "unrepairable" engines.

Larry, you are absolutely correct - I spoke with the service manager at the North Carolina dealership attempting to get a copy of the repair order. When I asked him if the engine was Timeserted and new head bolts used, he became defensive, stating that it is standard practice for them to Timesert the holes. When I asked him if they used the Northstar specific Timeserts and not the standard off the shelf Timeserts that are shorter, he was again defensive and stated they use the inserts from Cadillac. He then went on a diatribe about how the inserts may not work. I told him that if the repair was performed per the service manual, the engine is stronger than when it left the factory. Knowing what I know now, it's no wonder the service manager says that sometimes the inserts do not hold....

I never did get a copy of the repair order... I called them at least three times and there was always some excuse as to why they didn't pull it from the file. Nobody is that busy or forgetful....

I am going to assemble the engine and then install it as a unit. I discovered the root cause of the failure today...the dealer that Timeserted the engine set the inserts anywhere from .200" to .350" too low in the block. As a result, almost 40% of the engagement between the head bolts and the Timeserts was lost. That is the reason that all the Timeserts were broken when I removed them - they probably broke when the dealer tech. torqued the headbolts down. The old head bolts clearly showed the lack of engagement with the Timesert.

Either the dealer tech had the stop collar on the drill misadjusted...(hard to believe since it comes from Timesert set and sealed in place) or the tech free-handed the drilling process to save time. Based on the measurements I took from the block deck surface to the shoulder in the thread bolt holes, I believe the tech. freehanded it to save time..... The Big-Serts should fix the block though.

I feel better that I know for a fact why the dealer repair failed but upset in that who knows how many Northstar engines the cretin has destroyed or is in the process of destroying......

I snapped a couple of pictures during the removal - I'll post them when I get a chance.

That "tech" that did that sloppy work probably did the job in record time, and probably got a "pat on the back" from the service manager!

I wouldn't let my local Caddy dealer work on a Briggs and Stratton, let alone a North Star!

Britt

That is my concern - who knows how many engines those morons are damaging - not to menton hurting GM/Cadillac's image.

[BodybyFisher]

Its funny this issue comes up. I was at my local Cadillac dealer a while ago. If you recall I have had discussions with the major surgery mechanic (case half's and time sert "expert"). My complaint in the past has been his negative NS sucks, loser attitude. But the last time I spoke to him, he told me that time serting often doesn't work and he often gets them back a second time. I thought it odd at the time and questioned it here, thinking that was odd since I had not heard of issues with timeserting before that.

I wonder how much his lousy attitude is getting in the way of him timeserting the NS successfully? I have said that I think these guys should be all trained to do this major surgery and rotate through this assignment. I thnk this guy who does the major surgery thinks he is a prima donna and I think that gets in his way. I think it was IAN who said that, they are given only a certain number of hours to complete the job, which many say are not adequate for the job to be profitable.

Last week I got an opportunity to tell a GM rep that I thought that service was their problem, this is an example of why.

Think about this..... IF untrained DIY's can successfully time sert a NS, I would think that a GM tech with training, classes, helpers, access to service bulletins and all of the required equipment would be able to do this job successfully EVERY time.

[jhall]

Hi Kevin,

When you mount the engine on the stand, you can use the same bolts that held the transmission in place. There is an alignment dowel on the engine that may come into play. If so, this will prevent the engine from being mounted square to the stand plate /arms (e.g off by more than 1/4").

I didn't want to take the chance of damaging the dowel by trying to remove it, so I went to the hardware store and bought some large washers with center holes that fit around the dowel. I stacked washers so they covered and protected the dowel. The washer stack extended just beyond the dowel and it worked out pretty well. I also bought some washers to use on the other mount bolts so everything was square to the stand arms and to stack on the bolts to keep the thread engagement to the engine in the proper range.

Keep us posted.

Jeff

[BodybyFisher]

I always find it amazing that those bolts can hold an engine in place with all of that leverage and weight bearing down on them

[JimD]

....That is my concern - who knows how many engines those morons are damaging - not to menton hurting GM/Cadillac's image.

I think this dealership has earned the honor of being identified to protect the innocent GM dealers in the area.

[mikeal1892]

Its funny this issue comes up. I was at my local Cadillac dealer a while ago. If you recall I have had discussions with the major surgery mechanic (case half's and time sert "expert"). My complaint in the past has been his negative NS sucks, loser attitude. But the last time I spoke to him, he told me that time serting often doesn't work and he often gets them back a second time. I thought it odd at the time and questioned it here, thinking that was odd since I had not heard of issues with timeserting before that.

I wonder how much his lousy attitude is getting in the way of him timeserting the NS successfully? I have said that I think these guys should be all trained to do this major surgery and rotate through this assignment. I thnk this guy who does the major surgery thinks he is a prima donna and I think that gets in his way. I think it was IAN who said that, they are given only a certain number of hours to complete the job, which many say are not adequate for the job to be profitable.

Last week I got an opportunity to tell a GM rep that I thought that service was their problem, this is an example of why.

Think about this..... IF untrained DIY's can successfully time sert a NS, I would think that a GM tech with training, classes, helpers, access to service bulletins and all of the required equipment would be able to do this job successfully EVERY time.

Thats what I'm getting out of the dealer on mine really. It just seems they dont like doing timeserting and it comes a back. Not a pissy attitude though.

Michael

[navion]

I always find it amazing that those bolts can hold an engine in place with all of that leverage and weight bearing down on them

The bolts can, and do hold the engine. I have had my old N* hanging on a stand since I replaced the original engine 2 1/2 years ago. But I would NEVERget under it!

I have more faith in the bolts than I do in the stand it's self! If I had to get under it, I would use two avenues of support, such as the hoist AND the stand. Each avenue of support is capable of supporting the engine by it's self, but I would not trust either of them alone.

Britt

[BodybyFisher]

Thanks Britt.

[jhall]

Hi Guys,

Here's a pic of my engine on the stand. I was able to use some steel plates (unistrut fittings) I had on hand that matched the washer thickness at the dowel pretty closely (less than 1/8" difference). You can see one of the plates in the upper right above the washers. This pulled the engine up tight to the engine stand support arms.

BTW - the upper most bolts are placed under tension and more than strong enough to support the engine. It's always smart to get four of them attached to the stand so two bolts are taking the engine weight at any given time - especially if the engine will be rotated during repair.

[attachmentid=2461]

[KHE]

....That is my concern - who knows how many engines those morons are damaging - not to menton hurting GM/Cadillac's image.

I think this dealership has earned the honor of being identified to protect the innocent GM dealers in the area.

The dealership is Ben Mynatt Chevrolet Cadillac in Concord, NC.