KHE Posted April 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 I removed the front cam cover tonight and discovered 6 out of 10 bolts were stripped. Once I remove the waterpump crossover, I can remove the heads. The lower bolts on the waterpump crossover are a PITA to access..... I do not intend to get involved in some legal issue with the dealer in North Carolina... I am just going to repair the car as I planned and either drive it or sell it. The last thing I need is to be requested to appear in court in North Carolina. The lower bolts retaining the water pump crossover are a SOB to remove... I didn't get a chance to work on it much tonight as some friends stopped by for drinks. I did get the waterpump pulley removed and the front cam cover. jhall, thanks for the tip about the power steering pump pulley puller - I got one for $22 and it removed the water pump drive pulley with ease. It was a LOT cheaper than Kent-Moore's $103.00 tool....When Kent-Moore told be the pricce, I told them that the pulley retailed $40 from GM and that I'd be cheaper off in the long run by destroying the existing pulley and buying a new one from GM. They could not comment.... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dloch Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Kevin, Aren't you in michigan somewhere? Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Kevin, Aren't you in michigan somewhere? Yes - the West side of the state - Grand Haven. I tried to add my location to my profile but it won't take it unless I complete all the fields - birthday, etc... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dloch Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Really don't want to sell since I have another engine I have to timesert yet, for what I don't know yet . You can borrow it if that works out for you. You will have to get the inserts themselves but you can use the one I have and send it back to me when you are done. First you need to find out if the existing block has indeed been timeserted. If it has I don't think you can use the standard N* timesert kit....... let me know if I am wrong. Dennis BTW we (Offshore Super Series, OSS) had a boat race in Grand Haven a couple of years ago. I don't know if you pay attention to that stuff or not, one of the advertisments on the bill boards coming into town was " Spiderman is coming ". Great town.. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Kevin, Got a digital camera you can show some pics of the stripped bolts and other mess they made? I'm curious just how much they screwed up. Sounds like they reassembled with an air wrench and no torque limiter, so when you removed the manifold bolts - out came the threads. Timesert to the rescue!! For the case half - if the last dealer did the job, based on what you've already encountered, I'd recommend you pull it down and rework it. Stripped bolts in the case half will be a disaster in the making. If the work was done by someone else, you might be safe. Glad to hear the power steering puller worked for you. When I tore my '97 deville engine apart, I was happy to save $100 bucks on a tool I will only use once in a blue moon. BTW - I tried to pull the water pump pulley by conventional means also but the fit is just too tight and the direction of pull needs to be parallel with the cam shaft or it won't budge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Really don't want to sell since I have another engine I have to timesert yet, for what I don't know yet . You can borrow it if that works out for you. You will have to get the inserts themselves but you can use the one I have and send it back to me when you are done. First you need to find out if the existing block has indeed been timeserted. If it has I don't think you can use the standard N* timesert kit....... let me know if I am wrong. Dennis BTW we (Offshore Super Series, OSS) had a boat race in Grand Haven a couple of years ago. I don't know if you pay attention to that stuff or not, one of the advertisments on the bill boards coming into town was " Spiderman is coming ". Great town.. Borrowing the kit sounds like a plan. I need to get the heads off to see what I'm up against. I spent the entire day working on it...Removing the waterpump crossover was a huge PITA... the four lower bolts would interfere with the main wire harness. The front head is ready to be pulled but that large brace keeps me from pulling the head. I will need to lack the engine up in order to remove the front mount and brace. I think I can jack it up off the oil pan if I use a 2x6 between the jack and the pan. The rear head can be pulled once I remove one the last engine to trans brace and the brace similar to the one that's causing me the problems on the front head. It will probably take me all of tomorrow to do that. Three bolts on the front head and four on the rear head can't be removed - they loosen up about an inch but can't be removed. It's possible that some of the existing timeserts are pulled from the block and are hitting the heads - I'll know the whole story once I get it apart. If the engine has Timeserts, I'll need to rip them out of the block and install Big-serts. Hopefully, I can get the heads removed tomorrow and order parts on Monday. I plan to clean up the cam covers and other parts while waiting for the parts to arrive. It will be nice to have a short break before reassembling the engine! I have been taking pictures as I progress - once the heads are off, If I discover that there are not any Timeserts in the block, I will take photos of that as well. I've watched the powerboat races on and off over the years - I remember when the Popeye boat sunk. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Kevin, Sounds like removal and installation of a Northstar is 90% of headgasket replacement job (including timeserting). Some parts may be destroyed in the process as well. Is it absolutely impossible to timesert the engine in the engine bay? May be shifting/tilting it a little bit without disconnecting most of the stuff? I realize following the FSM is a good idea, but sometimes you have to improvise to make things easier. Particularly, if you do the job in your garage. Say, my FSM (for 91 Seville) recommends to remove intake manifold to get the starter out. Nevertheless, the starter can be EASILY removed without touching the manifold. This is just one example when FSM is let's say "misleading". I saw more. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dloch Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Getting the water pump crossover off is a major PITA. You can move the harness enough to get at them though. You may have to unhook or remove the gear selector indicator switch off the top off the trans to get enough play in the harness and the harness gets stiff with age it seems, quite unlike us old guys . Have to add some humor . Are we having fun yet???? I'll PM you with a way to contact me when/if you need me to send you the timesert kit. You will no doubt find that removing the short block will be easier once the heads and everthing else is out of the way, as Jay said you may want to look at the rest of the motor now that you are this far into it. Dennis Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Dennis, I had to remove the gear selector switch to gain room. I also unplugged the harness from the ABS/TCS to gain enough slack to move it out of the way. I liked the retainer - one pin/latch and a metal bracket that acted like a cam to remove/install the plug. Even with that, the harness was very stiff and difficult to manipulate but I eventually got it out of the way and the crossover came out. The gaskets look like the silicone type that are reusable. Two of the 4 engine to transmission bolts were behind that harness so even if I were pulling the engine, I would have had to fight the harness. I am wondering how I am going to torque the lower crossover bolts when I reassemble the engine. It seems that reassembly always goes faster and easier than disassembly. Yeah - I'm having fun... just before dinner yesterday, I was planning the removal of the large support brace that's keeping me from removing the front head, I thought to myself, "Jeeze, what did I get myself into with this project?" This morning, I am ready to get back out there and get the heads off. I've also discovered sore muscles that I never knew I had... Hopefully, by this evening, I'll have the heads off and know exactly what parts I need to order. I'd like to spend this week cleaning up the cam covers, etc. in order to take a break. Adallak, I am attempting to repair the engine with the block still in the car. It is possible - Barry94, and motor_car have done it. When I need to insert the block, I will need to use a right angle drill due to the clearance. I've been tilting the cradle in order to access the fasteners in the rear but it is still a difficult task. Over the years, I've found a few cases where the FSM was misleading. The manual states remove waterpump crossover - see secton 6B and there is NOTHING in section 6B on the removal of the crossover. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dloch Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 If you decide to try and fix the engine in the car make sure you have plenty on masking tape around. I would also sugget that you get some wax and grease remover to clean off any oil so the tape will stick. Even with the motor out of the car and on the stand I covered every opening completely with tape so no chips would get into any other place of the engine, even the deck surface. You will find that the timesert procedure develops a lot of chips and you will have to find a way of dealing with them. What I did was modify one of the ends for my shop vac by drilling a hole in that I could pass a piece of tubing through that was connected to the end of an air gun. After and during the drilling/machining process I would put the end of the vac hose over the hole turn on the vac and then push the air gun tube down through the vac end hole and start blowing the chips out. I pushed the air gun tube all the way to the bottom of the hole. After drilling, reaming and tapping the hole I used brake cleaner that I sprayed into the hole to remove any oil or thread cutting lubricate prior to installing the timesert itself. BTW you will need to get a drilling , reaming, taping lubricant tha is safe to use with aluminum block or heads. The hole has to be perfectly free of chips and oil prior to inserting the insert itself. When you install the insert you will put locktite on the outside threads to retain it in the block, that way you can remove the headbolt again if need be without the insert backing out of the block as well. Just trying to prepare you for what is ahead and what the line of thinking is before you get there. When I did mine there wasn't a lot of information known or shared about the details and the details are what make the repair a success. So if I am rambling on about things you already prepared for just ignore me and take it with a grain of salt. I traded e-mails with Bbob at the time and he would provide ideas and guidance, what a fantastic resource he was........ Good luck and keep at it. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Dennis, I appreciate the information! I was working on it this morning - I almost have the rear head ready for removal but I found one "hidden" brace that I need to remove and then it should finally come out. I won't be back at it until later this afternoon but hope to get both heads off today. You mentioned a reamer but I don't see that in the timesert kit - all they show is a drill, tap, and installation tool. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Both heads are off - they fought me EVERY step of the way, especially the front head - it had four bolts that would not come out as the Timeserts were hitting the head. I needed to use small blocks of wood to hold the head up while I pried on noncritical surfaces while unbolting the headbolts. I also developed new combinations of cuss-words which I'm sure helped... Once the Timeserts were visible, I could use needle nose vice grips to clamp them and remove the bolt. The four Timeserts associated with the offending bolts appear to be fractured as the pieces I removed were only about 5/8" long. I now need to remove ALL of the old Timeserts and clean out the holes in the block. I'll need to install Big-Serts to properly complete the repair. The only explanation as to why the Timeserts failed is that the dealer did not thouroughly clean the holes in the block and the Loctite never held. I not need to clean out the head bolt holes in the block as many of them are filled with an oily coolant mixture. That will be tomorrow evening's project. I am going to order parts tomorrow and hope to be reassembling the engine next weekend. I need a break! Reassembly always seems to go much faster and easier than disassembly. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Kevin, Sounds like you've waded through the toughest part OK. Stubborn parts are finally out and now you can curse the SOB that did the lousy repair in the first place. Of course, you might want to thank him instead - based on the deal you got on the car...... Keep us updated. Try not to burn yourself out. You might be too sore to drive it after you finish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 So by not cleaning the holes, the bolts bottomed out and pushed the time serts out? I recall jhall being very concerned about cleaning the holes, he made this statement: As far as removing / reinstalling the alignment plate, this is really easy. The steps that take most of the time (maybe the reason for the name Timesert ) is clearing the hole of chips during the drilling and tapping operations. In a bolt hole that still has a full set of threads, the drill has to be pulled out and the hole/drill bit cleaned at least twice. The tap also has to be cleaned at least twice. Chip build-up is a problem since the drill and tap tools need to remove material and not regrind the cuttings it in the hole (causes jamming, tool dulling and may oversize the hole/threads. See this thread: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4796&st=0 Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 So by not cleaning the holes, the bolts bottomed out and pushed the time serts out? I recall jhall being very concerned about cleaning the holes, he made this statement: As far as removing / reinstalling the alignment plate, this is really easy. The steps that take most of the time (maybe the reason for the name Timesert ) is clearing the hole of chips during the drilling and tapping operations. In a bolt hole that still has a full set of threads, the drill has to be pulled out and the hole/drill bit cleaned at least twice. The tap also has to be cleaned at least twice. Chip build-up is a problem since the drill and tap tools need to remove material and not regrind the cuttings it in the hole (causes jamming, tool dulling and may oversize the hole/threads. See this thread: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4796&st=0 My theory is that the dealer tech did not properly clean the thread cutting oil out of the holes before installing the Timeserts and because of that, the Loctite did not hold. Kevin, Sounds like you've waded through the toughest part OK. Stubborn parts are finally out and now you can curse the SOB that did the lousy repair in the first place. Of course, you might want to thank him instead - based on the deal you got on the car...... Keep us updated. Try not to burn yourself out. You might be too sore to drive it after you finish Valid point - if it weren't for the lousy repair, I would not have got the car at such a good price. This week should be an easy one - cleaning up gasket surfaces, waiting for parts, looking for my 10mm 1/4" drive socket and short extension....., and preparing for reassembly. Once I start a project like this, I don't like to let it drag out very long. My plan is to have it reassembled and back on the road in a couple of weeks. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdictas Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 KHE, Glad to hear you've made progress. Thank god for that "Mr. Goodwrench" training. Not being familar with the timeserting process, I'm going to make some assumptions based on everyones postings. It sounds like after the holes are drilled in block, the holes are then tapped to receive threaded timeserts, which are coated with loctite. It is imperative that all cutting oils are removed from all surfaces in order to obtain a proper bond. Some grades of loctite require the use of a primer in order to accelerate the curing process. A full cure can take up 24 hours. What grade of loctite comes with the kit? I think JHall mentioned in an earlier post, that the head bolts should not be installed via impact gun or some other air tool. He's right, the pounding of the impact gun on the bolt could break the loctite bond and eventually cause the timesert to fail. It sounds like the failure mode was a combination of errors. One, the bores were not properly clean out to remove cutting oils and chips. Two, "Mr Goodwrench" probably used an impact gun to reassemble the heads causing the weak loctite bond to fail. Thanks for keeping us updated. I look forward to your next post. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BodybyFisher Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 No way, you guys think that some mechanics might use an impact gun? That would be the furthest tool from my mind Pre-1995 - DTC codes OBD1 >> 1996 and newer - DTC codes OBD2 >> https://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/gm/obd_codes.htm How to check for codes Caddyinfo How To Technical Archive >> http://www.caddyinfo.com/wordpress/cadillac-how-to-faq/ Cadillac History & Specifications Year by Year http://www.motorera.com/cadillac/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dloch Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I agree. I believe that the holes that had the timerserts weren't cleaned properly and that is why the timersert backed out with the head bolt. Kevin, Were all the holes timeserted or only a few? My bet is that only a few were timeserted and the rest just pulled when the reassemblied again. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I agree. I believe that the holes that had the timerserts weren't cleaned properly and that is why the timersert backed out with the head bolt. Kevin, Were all the holes timeserted or only a few? My bet is that only a few were timeserted and the rest just pulled when the reassemblied again. I'll check tonight to see if all the holes were timeserted. How long are the Northstar Timeserts? The Timeserts that pulled were about 5/8" in length but it looked like they were broken off. How far down below the deck surface do the Timeserts sit? Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdge Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 The timesert inserts are about 1 3/16 inches long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry94 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Kevin, I should have forwarded you my list of cuss-words when I did the timeserts. Just a comment on the timeserts that came out. I agree that the loctite likely did not bond to the aluminium threads. Also, as part of the Timesert install process, is that the insertion tool must be installed far enough, which flares out the bottom of the insert, which locks the insert in place. With the flare on the bottom and the loctite, the inserts should never move. From what you describe, it sounds like the insert broke just above the flare on the bottom. I'm thinking that maybe they used an air tool to install the inserts and fractured the insert before it actually flared at the end. Even without loctite, the inserts should not spin out. Barry 2008 STS V82016 Colorado Z711970 Corvette LT-1 Coupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I'd vote for Barry's assumption with a slight alternative: Timeserts were installed without properly swaging the bottom of the insert using the expansion tool. When the head bolts were run into the block, they were already pulling against an insert that was improperly installed and were then stressed at the swaging junction as the head bolt came under tension, so the insert was actually placed under stress before it was fully seated in the block. Block threads start creeping at the upper part of the insert. The head bolts partially swaged the insert and the loctite later cured (and locked) a smaller section of the lower portion of the Timesert back into place. Block thread failure already exists in the upper part of the insert which was not fully locked into the block (the block threads pulled out slightly because the insert was not swaged). Basically, this effort pulled the threads out of the block slightly. The head bolts then swaged the inserts and locked them into place as each head bolt was tightened more - but the inserts were not at full strength. It's very likely some of these very inserts failed under the initial round of bolt torque just after the "repair", causing the head gasket to leak.......again. As the head bolts were removed by Kevin, the upper portion of the Timesert took the rotational stress, snapped away and came out on the end of the head bolt (the factory installed thread sealer on the head bolts helped lock the bolt to the Timesert), The threads on the upper part of the insert were not providing full anchoring and the insert simply twisted off. So much for all that Goodwrench training provided to the mechanic...... BTW - My comment about the use of an air wrench was directed at the water pump manifold bolts but I would not be surprised if the mechanic had a "faster" way to swage the block inserts using an air tool. Faster, but not thorough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 I should have forwarded you my list of cuss-words when I did the timeserts. Regards, Warren P.S. WOW, posts = 711. Should I play Lotto? There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Kevin: You could be beyond needing this information but I will pass it along and you decide. I just now discovered my '04 Service Manual devotes 36 pages to "Thread Repair". Eighteen of those pages are specific to head bolt hole thread repair. Detailed instructions with critical dimensions. If you could use a copy, drop me a Pmail and I will either scan them or copy them to paper. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted April 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Jim, I wish I were beyond the Timesert stage and was putting the engine back together. The headbolts were different in the 2002+ models as there were long and short headbolts depending on if they were in the upper or lower position. I'll check my service manual when I get home to see if it contains the critical dimensions. If my manual (I'm using a '96 manual as the '96 and '97 cars are identical) doesn't contain that information, I'd be interested in the critical; dimension section. I need to use the oversised Inserts as the first set of Timeserts were improperly installed. I am hoping to have the car completed and driveable by the end of this month. Hopefully, no more problems crop up. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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