Gumout Fuel Injector Cleaner and Top Tier Gas

[JasonA]

Lately, my car hasn't been performing at what I'd call "optimum levels". It's plenty fast, but it just seems to have lost its "edge". It would also sometimes hesitate during startup. The starter would crank it, and it'd just barely catch, choke a bit, and then vroom to life. Very rarely, it wouldn't catch itself and I'd have to crank it again. Plugs are original at 147k miles, I figured they need replacing, etc.

I've also been running 89 octane recently due to fuel prices. During heavy throttle, I've been getting some spark knock, but I've also been driving it easier lately, so the spark knock didn't occur much, but it bothered me when it did.

Against all recommendations, I put in a bottle of Gumout Regane Fuel System Cleaner. I've also been reading up on Top Tier Gas, and discovered that the four automakers who support that standard (BMW, GM, Honda, Toyota) know that there's a certain level of deposits that, once builtup in the engine, can hinder startability and overall performance. After visiting http://www.toptiergas.com, and printing a list of Top Tier Gas fuel stations and putting a copy in each vehicle (so I know where to go), I thought I'd also put in a bottle of fuel system cleaner to help the process alone.

I should first say that I'm sensitive to the old "butt dyno" claims, as I comment often on the performance of lack thereof of certain intake modifications.

However, I believe I've noticed a big difference in the driveability of this car since I've put in that fuel injector cleaner, and ran a tank of premium Chevron gasoline (a Top Tier fuel). I usually buy either Amoco or "Murphy Oil", sold at my local Wal-Mart. I've always been one to say that "gas is gas", get the cheapest around. I've really started to rethink that now. The hesitation at startup is completely gone. When I crank it, it doesn't think about it. It just roars to life. Quickly. Throttle response is better, and it eats pavement now with a ferocity that I don't remember in a long long time.

I was thinking that letting the plugs go too long was contributing to my minor drivability problems. But now I know the plugs are still fine -- it seems to have been deposit buildup or maybe even dirty fuel injectors. Whatever it is, this Northstar is just a terror now, and it's running at least as good now as it's ever run before.

As a side note, if you visit toptiergas.com, and look at the actual spec, you'll notice that Top Tier fuel must contain between 8% and 10% ethanol. As we know, GM cars are certified for up to 10% ethanol. So by using Top Tier fuels, you know you're using 5-7% less foreign petroleum (factoring in SLIGHTLY worse fuel mileage over the long run, for the ethanol content), which is something I've been VERY mindful of late (foreign-sourced products in general, especially those from Asia and from the Middle East).

What I like about the Top Tier Gas spec is you KNOW what the good gasoline is. The same truck may very well deliver gas to Chevron AND to Joe's Diner/Tanning Salon/Service Station. But you never know for sure I guess. Now you do -- you at least know who's gone through the certification process to have their fuel validated at the Top Tier level -- something four of the bigs support, including our own "corporate father", GM.

[Ranger]

Jason,

I have read that TopTier site before and the first thing I noticed (and bothered me) is that it does not say who put that site out, who is behind it, it's just there. You'll notice there is no "Contact Us" or "About Us". Clever marketing? Perhaps. Maybe it's just my skeptical nature but I take it with a grain of salt.

[JIMDTS]

It's good the gumout worked for you LastI put in a bottle of Gumout in one of my cars The fuel pump failed shortly after I used gumout twice on a 98 deville and both times shortly afterward the fuel pump failed It also did the same thing on a 95 i had

Good Luck

Jim

[JasonA]

Larry, I also noticed that there was no contact us link.

However, Car & Driver once wrote about Top Tier Gas a few months ago under a column entitled "Your Car Is A Temple, So Put In The Good Stuff": http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...2&page_number=1

In addition, the Top Tier reference IS on some of the gasoline refiner's sites, including Chevron's: http://www.chevron.com/products/

So I believe the Top Tier spec and validation process is legitimate.

Jim, I'll watch out for a failed fuel pump.

Thanks,

[Regis]

I think most of us at one time or another have used injector and or fuel cleaner of one brand or another. It does seem to work now and then and probably the reason they're still around. My last fuel pump over dosed on Chevron Techron. I used one bottle of it and thought "Hey not bad". So why not another bottle? I think within a 3 month period I must have fed that fuel pump at least 8 bottles . I know I know you don't have to tell me......."Should've quit at 7 bottles." I definitely got carried away there. Now... I'll admit <looking around> that I keep a bottle or two of Lucas injector cleaner around..... just incase the new fuel pump gets thirsty.

[Marika]

Doing a /whois on that website I come up with:

National Products Group

P.O. Box 3475

Tulsa, OK 74101 US

[KHE]

Lately, my car hasn't been performing at what I'd call "optimum levels". It's plenty fast, but it just seems to have lost its "edge". It would also sometimes hesitate during startup. The starter would crank it, and it'd just barely catch, choke a bit, and then vroom to life. Very rarely, it wouldn't catch itself and I'd have to crank it again. Plugs are original at 147k miles, I figured they need replacing, etc.

I've also been running 89 octane recently due to fuel prices. During heavy throttle, I've been getting some spark knock, but I've also been driving it easier lately, so the spark knock didn't occur much, but it bothered me when it did.

Against all recommendations, I put in a bottle of Gumout Regane Fuel System Cleaner. I've also been reading up on Top Tier Gas, and discovered that the four automakers who support that standard (BMW, GM, Honda, Toyota) know that there's a certain level of deposits that, once builtup in the engine, can hinder startability and overall performance. After visiting http://www.toptiergas.com, and printing a list of Top Tier Gas fuel stations and putting a copy in each vehicle (so I know where to go), I thought I'd also put in a bottle of fuel system cleaner to help the process alone.

I should first say that I'm sensitive to the old "butt dyno" claims, as I comment often on the performance of lack thereof of certain intake modifications.

However, I believe I've noticed a big difference in the driveability of this car since I've put in that fuel injector cleaner, and ran a tank of premium Chevron gasoline (a Top Tier fuel). I usually buy either Amoco or "Murphy Oil", sold at my local Wal-Mart. I've always been one to say that "gas is gas", get the cheapest around. I've really started to rethink that now. The hesitation at startup is completely gone. When I crank it, it doesn't think about it. It just roars to life. Quickly. Throttle response is better, and it eats pavement now with a ferocity that I don't remember in a long long time.

I was thinking that letting the plugs go too long was contributing to my minor drivability problems. But now I know the plugs are still fine -- it seems to have been deposit buildup or maybe even dirty fuel injectors. Whatever it is, this Northstar is just a terror now, and it's running at least as good now as it's ever run before.

As a side note, if you visit toptiergas.com, and look at the actual spec, you'll notice that Top Tier fuel must contain between 8% and 10% ethanol. As we know, GM cars are certified for up to 10% ethanol. So by using Top Tier fuels, you know you're using 5-7% less foreign petroleum (factoring in SLIGHTLY worse fuel mileage over the long run, for the ethanol content), which is something I've been VERY mindful of late (foreign-sourced products in general, especially those from Asia and from the Middle East).

What I like about the Top Tier Gas spec is you KNOW what the good gasoline is. The same truck may very well deliver gas to Chevron AND to Joe's Diner/Tanning Salon/Service Station. But you never know for sure I guess. Now you do -- you at least know who's gone through the certification process to have their fuel validated at the Top Tier level -- something four of the bigs support, including our own "corporate father", GM.

Jason,

At 147k on the clock, I recommend you install a new set of Delco platinum plugs. At least inspect them - they are so easy to change. I'll bet that the platinum pads are missing on half the plugs. At 95,000 miles, my SLS began to run rough and stumble on acceleration. After verifying the fuel pressure was OK, I checked the plugs and sure enough half of them were missing the platinum pad on the groung electrode. A new set restored the performance.

[JohnnyG]

All of this actully only shows how little people know about the gasoline business, and in my opinion is pure marketing hype.

I've said this before but it seems time to revisit it. I sell 5 brands of gasoline over my rack, all coming from the same tank. No, Shell is not one of them, but you can bet that if there was a Shell station within 50 miles of me, I'd be selling them gasoline as well.....still out of the same tank.

It is obvious that the car makers listed have an interest in selling those particular brands of gasoline...maybe they have money invested in their stock, who knows. If you own a Ford car, there was some talk they they were going to go recommend BP brand products.

At any rate, I don't think we know the truth about "Top-Tier" gasoline, in fact it's not even advertised or mentioned around here. We are supposed to have one "watchdog" organization the assure the motoring public that they are getting "the good stuff" and that is the SAE Society of Automotive Engineers.

http://www.sae.org/servlets/index

[JasonA]

I agree that there are a variety of reasons corporations choose to endorse other brands of whatever product is in question. But I also believe, unless the website and the petroleum vendors are just flat falsifying information, that the gasoline brands listed on the toptiergas.com site do validate to the specs listed there. As I said in my first message, it's entirely possible that ALL gas out there validates to those specs, but there's no way for the average consumer like me, who is EXTREMELY naive of the gasoline industry, to know if brand A has any more additives in the tank than brand B. Are you asserting that ALL gas in one locality, regardless of brand, is the EXACT same product? All 350 gas stations in Fayetteville NC have the exact same product?

JohnnyG, let me ask you a few questions, since I know you know the gas industry:

1) Is there a set of federal regulations dictating the minimum levels of additives in gasoline?

2) If there is, can you tell me if the Top Tier specs listed on that website are indeed more stringent than the standard EPA regulations, as they claim?

3) Does SAE recommend a higher level of detergents or additives compared to the EPA, as Top Tier claims to do?

4) Looking at the specs on the Top Tier site, do you know if the gas you sell would validate to those specs? If yes, then the possibility that all gas out there would validate to Top Tier sounds like a reality.

Please help, because as you say (correctly), we ARE an ignorant public when it comes to knowing what's in the gas we buy.

Thanks

[JasonA]

By the way, I Googled "amoco top tier", since Amoco gasoline is prevalent in my area. I found this on a FAQ page on BP.com:

Q. Does Amoco Ultimate premium meet the automakers’ “Top Tier” standard?

A. In terms of cleaning formula, Amoco Ultimate meets the Top Tier program specifications. Top Tier is only about cleaning formula and is not a comprehensive measure of fuel quality or performance. Amoco Ultimate goes beyond Top Tier by removing deposit-forming impurities at the refinery, exceeding industry standards for drivability.

[JasonA]

For what it's worth, I found some other interesting resources on the Internet referencing Top Tier Gas:

http://www.sfrcorp.com/notice.asp?NoticeID=4 That article describes a situation where the four automakers are working almost "against" the petroleum industry with this intiative, rather than hedging their bets with them.

http://www.imakenews.com/flashpoint/e_article000253616.cfm

http://autorepair.about.com/od/generalinfo/a/110305.htm

http://www.honda.ca/Honda/YourHonda/FAQ/Section6.htm?L=E Here, Honda provides a direct link to the Top Tier Gas.com site.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...15/ai_n14867128

It struck me when reading all those resources, nowhere does it state that these four auto makers are recommending a certain brand of gas (like Ford apparently considered). The Top Tier Gas program appears to be a voluntary program in which ANY gasoline brand can certify their gas as meeting the standard. It doesn't seem that BMW, GM, Honda or Toyota are "in bed" with any brand of gas, but I guess anything's possible.

[jschunke]

Happens to me all the time. Get the the cheap,

low octane stuff, then spend days construing why

the engine sounds like crap. Spark plugs? wires?

muffler bearings? Nope. Fill 'er up with 93 octane

and I'm back in business.

[ted tcb]

Jason: I too have had a cranking issue. When I use low octane fuel, the car starts fine first thing, but on subsequent startups throughout the day, I occasionally have to blip the gas pedal.

I now run Sunoco 94 octane, and the car catches on the first crank, everytime.

The dealer told me it could be the position of the throttle plate ... I don't care, because my manual calls for high octane, the car feels stronger (psychsymatic, perhaps), and it definitely catches quicker with 94 octane.

I end up spending $25 per week, rather than $22 per week on regular ... a reasonable tradeoff and my starter motor doesn't work as hard.

[Ranger]

Ted,

Have you checked your FPR? Sounds like a classic FPR problem.

[ted tcb]

Thanks, Ranger.

If the cranking reappears, I'll have the fuel pressure checked out. Its been well over a month since I've experienced any starting issues, and with Xmas $$ looming, I figure I'll wait and see.

If I see a reoccurance, the FPR will be my first choice of action.

[Ranger]

I am not sure if a bad FPR will show up in a fuel pressure reading. Just pull the vacuum hose with the engine running and look for fuel. If there is any present, R & R the FPR.

[Regis]

Jason,

At 147k on the clock, I recommend you install a new set of Delco platinum plugs. At least inspect them - they are so easy to change. I'll bet that the platinum pads are missing on half the plugs. At 95,000 miles, my SLS began to run rough and stumble on acceleration. After verifying the fuel pressure was OK, I checked the plugs and sure enough half of them were missing the platinum pad on the groung electrode. A new set restored the performance.

Kevin,

I think you hit it right on the head. Jason I'll bet those plugs of yours are looking a bit rough with those kind of miles on them. Heck I'm on my 3rd set and what a difference they make. From what I've read from other members some have lost pads with far less miles. At the very least it sure couldn't hurt. They don't owe you a thing at this point.

[JasonA]

I may go ahead and change them this winter when I do a few other things. Frankly, I'm not in a big hurry though. The car runs just perfect now. I don't remember it running any smoother or faster. Even I agree that closing in on 150,000 miles on one set of spark plugs is a long time, but at the same time, I don't see the need to fix something that's not broke.

[KHE]

I would at least inspect them. They are very easy to remove - especially the front four plugs. If you find any that are missing the pads, you can probably just replace the ones missing the pads.

[JasonA]

I'm just paranoid about damaging the threads in the heads, so I kept putting it off and putting it off until I got to where I am now.

[KHE]

Borrow an air impact wrench if you don't have one. The hammering action of the impact wrench will break any corrosion bond without damaging the threads in the head. That's what I used and they came right out without any problems. I used a 6" extension and a 5/8" spark plug socket - even the back four plugs were a breeze.

[JasonA]

Kevin, were you able to get the back plugs with an extension and impact gun...without using u-joints? I have a large electric impact gun (looks like a large electric drill).

[Regis]

Those 4 back plugs can be a bit of a pain if you're not quite the right sized person. If you're tall and lanky it should be easy to access them from the side. If you're a smaller person like myself you can just lay across the engine without much trouble. My 4 rear plugs came out without too much hassle using a 3/8 drive and extension. Not exactly the roomiest area but definitely doable. You definitely want to shoot some compressed air around the plugs before extracting them to clear the dirt and other foreign objects.

[KHE]

Kevin, were you able to get the back plugs with an extension and impact gun...without using u-joints? I have a large electric impact gun (looks like a large electric drill).

I think it was just a 6" extension with the plug socket. I may have needed a u-joint but I don't remember - it was over a year ago . The electric impact gun should work fine.

[Spurlee]

I think most of us at one time or another have used injector and or fuel cleaner of one brand or another. It does seem to work now and then and probably the reason they're still around. My last fuel pump over dosed on Chevron Techron. I used one bottle of it and thought "Hey not bad". So why not another bottle? I think within a 3 month period I must have fed that fuel pump at least 8 bottles . I know I know you don't have to tell me......."Should've quit at 7 bottles." I definitely got carried away there. Now... I'll admit <looking around> that I keep a bottle or two of Lucas injector cleaner around..... just incase the new fuel pump gets thirsty.

I'm interested to see this, and other, quotes regarding fuel pumps failing after using injector cleaner! I've used the stuff at every oil change for years on my Cadillacs, Chevy trucks, Corvettes and just about everything with a piston. Never had a problem.

I regularly get 25+ highway and 19+ mixed use on my '96 El Dorado with about 115,000 on it. I use inexpensive 87 Octane gas from high volume dealers. She starts, runs, idles and burns rubber just fine.

Once in a great while I pour 1/2 cup of Seafoam in the air intake while it idles, shut it off and let it sit for 20 minutes and start it back up. I changed the plugs at 100,000 but that's about it.

I am blessed I guess.