acklac7 Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ok I've drilled out the rivets, but am stuck trying to install the ball joint. The manual calls for inserting the ball J. into the control arm, then inserting the stud through the donut-hole near the brake (is this the "knuckle"?). Well I can only get the control arm down yey-far...then it really begins to stiffen up and I'm afraid any additional force will bust it. I've tried to install the ball joint after threading the stud through the donut. At that point however, I am unable to get one of the retaining bolts into the control arm..See the pic. .....Any ideas? A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Remove the control arm, mine is two control arm bolts plus the strut rod nut.. It will be much easier to work on. THOSE three bolts and nuts connecting the ball joint to the control arm go in FIRST not LAST.... Attach the ball joint to the control arm TORQUE the bolts up to spec, THEN put the ball joint stud into the knuckle. The ball joint seal looks ripped is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 If you've damaged the grease seal on the ball joint, replace the seal now or the joint won't last very long... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 I believe the seal is fine..grease can come out of the top, thats about it. In regards to removing the control arm, Scotty you previously mentioned that you replaced several bushings when you removed yours...Is replacing them mandatory? Cause I would like to get the job done this weekend...And unless the parts dept. is open tomorrow (and has the bushings in stock) I'm likely going to forgo the new bushings and use the old ones....If that is advisable..... Thanks. A.J.....Also the old B.Joint had a ton of play..And the new one you can't even move....Does the new one just need to be broken in or something? A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 .....Also the old B.Joint had a ton of play..And the new one you can't even move....Does the new one just need to be broken in or something? Nope. You're just seeing the difference between a worn out ball joint and a new one. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 acklac, If it's any help: When I pulled the engine on my '97 Deville, I ran across a similar problem where I had to disconnect the lower arm so I could pull the drive shafts. My solution was more of a brute-force effort. I removed the nut from the ball joint, separated it from the upper assembly and used a short crow bar to leverage the lower control arm down just far enough so the stud on the ball joint cleared the hole. No damage done and I did not have to remove the bolts and bushings from the lower arm. MAKE SURE YOU PUT THE CAR ON JACK STANDS WHEN DOING THIS WORK. The car can rock during the muscling. A jack will not provide a stable means of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I believe the seal is fine..grease can come out of the top, thats about it. In regards to removing the control arm, Scotty you previously mentioned that you replaced several bushings when you removed yours...Is replacing them mandatory? Cause I would like to get the job done this weekend...And unless the parts dept. is open tomorrow (and has the bushings in stock) I'm likely going to forgo the new bushings and use the old ones....If that is advisable..... Thanks. A.J.....Also the old B.Joint had a ton of play..And the new one you can't even move....Does the new one just need to be broken in or something? Don't worry about the control arm bushings at all, fix your problem at hand. Its unlikely that the dealer will have them in BUT, if you can get the strut rod bushings do so. You may find a NAPA that has POLY strut rod bushings if you are lucky, go early so they can get them in the same day, if you can. Also try these http://www.energysuspension.com/pages/strutrbu.html They are sold at Autozone ALSO and VERY important, DO NOT tighten the control arm bolts with the control arm hanging, they MUST be tightened with the car AT ride height, otherwise you risk pre-loading the control arm bushings and damaging them from twisting the bushings when the car is lowered. My advise is to gently snug up the control arm bolts, put the car up on ramps, and then tighten them to spec with a torque wrench. That is how the new ball joint is, tight, if you were getting that much play in the old one it was really bad..... once you grease it it will be fine.. Be 100% sure that what I saw was not a cut in the ball joint boot, as Kevin noted it's not good. Energy also sells ball joint boots http://www.energysuspension.com/pages/tierboots.html Good luck, I sent you my cell phone number if you need to call, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 acklac, If it's any help: When I pulled the engine on my '97 Deville, I ran across a similar problem where I had to disconnect the lower arm so I could pull the drive shafts. My solution was more of a brute-force effort. I removed the nut from the ball joint, separated it from the upper assembly and used a short crow bar to leverage the lower control arm down just far enough so the stud on the ball joint cleared the hole. No damage done and I did not have to remove the bolts and bushings from the lower arm. MAKE SURE YOU PUT THE CAR ON JACK STANDS WHEN DOING THIS WORK. The car can rock during the muscling. A jack will not provide a stable means of support. Hell yea, it can be done at this point, the hard part of drilling out the rivets is done already. This is a GOOD point. You just need to install the three bolts and nuts to connect the new ball joint to the control arm, then insert the ball joint stud into the knuckle. I have to give you credit, drilling those rivets in place must have been a bear.. jhall is right there is NO reason to remove the control arm at this point. The time to remove it was when you needed to drill out the rivets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I've tried to install the ball joint after threading the stud through the donut. At that point however, I am unable to get one of the retaining bolts into the control arm..See the pic. .....Any ideas? How about installing the bolts from the bottom (as the illustration in the manual suggests)? The nut will have to be 'started' before the bolt is inserted all the way in the case of this problem hole. If the bolts _have_ to be from the top, you might try compressing the front suspension (by supporting it directly under the ball joint) to relax sufficiently the knuckle to control arm angle. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 My solution was more of a brute-force effort. I removed the nut from the ball joint, separated it from the upper assembly and used a short crow bar to leverage the lower control arm down just far enough so the stud on the ball joint cleared the hole. No damage done and I did not have to remove the bolts and bushings from the lower arm. Jhall...I removed the ball joint by first sliding it out from the control arm, then it just fell out of the knuckle( and drilling it out from while jacked up was a bear!!) However I was unaware that the control arm was "spring loaded" .....yet another live and learn scenario ( seems like most of them occur while working on my car..lol) anyway I popped the ball joint out and the control arm smacked into the knuckle...However the C.A was not fully extended to the ground...So the force of the impact was equal to about an inch of kinetic energy...rather than 4 (if it had been fully extended). At any rate, I already tried install the ball joint using the "brute force" method ...While I can get the control arm down, it's not far enough. My dad always taught me never to force anything...And I can feel alot of resistance when I get the control arm down to a certain point (still need at least another 3" to slip the stud into the knuckle)....Enough resistance to make me say "man this thing is going to bust"...Maybe the knuckle is bent?..I'll try and post a pic tomorrow (if it stops raining ) with the arm fully extended. And my "baby" is currently suspended above 2 jacks, and 2 jack-stands..Hopefully leaving her like that isn't causing any problems.....sure is a sad sight to see ...thanks for the help guys A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Your last post confused me. I would just take the nut off the ball joint stud. Drop out the ball joint stud push the control arm down. Install and torque the three bolts and nuts, (KevinW states that the manual states the nuts face up). And then install the ball joint stud into the knuckle and tighten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Not sure where I lost you Scotty (maybe the whole kinetic energy bit?)..However I'm not the greatest communicator. and at times I don't posses the level of education needed to effectively communicate my problems. So I try my best Anyway I tried exactly what you describe...and man..it ain't going to happen...I can comfortably extend the control arm to point A..any more extension and I feel something will break...And at point A I still need to extend the control arm 3 more inches in order to insert the stud into the knuckle. I automatically assumed that the bolts are installed from the top? After taking a closer look at the manual, maybe they are supposed to be installed from the bottom. How hard is it to remove the control arm? If it isn't that hard I might as well remove it...seems like that might be the easiest/safest bet. A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 At any rate, I already tried install the ball joint using the "brute force" method ...While I can get the control arm down, it's not far enough. My dad always taught me never to force anything...And I can feel alot of resistance when I get the control arm down to a certain point (still need at least another 3" to slip the stud into the knuckle)....Enough resistance to make me say "man this thing is going to bust"...Maybe the knuckle is bent?..I'll try and post a pic tomorrow (if it stops raining ) with the arm fully extended. This statement confuses me, the photo shows the new ball joint stud in the knuckle. You say you can't get the control arm down far enough, what did i miss. It is possible, that if you are having a problem making the ball joint stud and the knuckle meet, that you dislodged the inner CV joint in the axle, I hope not, but there is a warning about it in the manual (see below). If you pulled the wheel assembly up far enough to drill you could have dislodged the inner joint. This is another reason I remove the control arm and put it on a bench. Yea Baby, check this out, I am known as BodybyFisher on cadillacforums: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 My apologies..... The photo does show the ball joint stud in the knuckle. However I had to install the stud into the knuckle first..Then position the ringed end of the ball joint into the control arm..The manual calls for "1. Ball joint into control arm, 2.Ball joint to control arm bolts.......) When I follow the manual, and start by inserting the B. Joint into the control arm, I run into problems. Once the B. Joint is mated to the control arm I can't get the arm to extend enough in order to install the stud into the knuckle..A picture is worth a thousand words...LOL...hopefully I can get one tomorrow! A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 This is why I suggested you call me on the cell, this is so hard to understand (this time of night). Are you telling me that if you put the ball joint into the control arm and put the 3 bolts and nuts in, that you can't put the ball joint stud into the knuckle? If you are...........From your description it seems so, I do believe that you have over extended the inner CV joint and it's been dislodged (see my post above and the link).. Are you having trouble putting the stud into the knuckle? Mike If you have overextended the CV joint its not that big a deal so don't stress out... It will just be one more thing to do, think of it that way, and as you can see someone else has done it on cadillacforums...so it can be done and it's not just an idle threat in the service manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Nuts up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 This is why I suggested you call me on the cell, this is so hard to understand (this time of night). Are you telling me that if you put the ball joint into the control arm and put the 3 bolts and nuts in, that you can't put the ball joint stud into the knuckle? If you are...........From your description it seems so, I do believe that you have over extended the inner CV joint and it's been dislodged (see my post above and the link).. Are you having trouble putting the stud into the knuckle? Mike Yeah...That is what I was trying to say...It was getting late so I figured it would be best to start at it this morning...Will read the CV post and take a look today (if it stops raining) most likely will get at it tomorrow though A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I am trying to follow this thread and it is challenging. I recently replaced a ball joint and I think I had the same problem. I solved it by removing the control arm. One thing that may help is to leave all the bolts really loose until you have all them installed. That will give you the maximum amount of play. I think you can install the bolts from the bottom with the nut above. That may solve your clearance issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I am trying to follow this thread and it is challenging. I recently replaced a ball joint and I think I had the same problem. I solved it by removing the control arm. One thing that may help is to leave all the bolts really loose until you have all them installed. That will give you the maximum amount of play. I think you can install the bolts from the bottom with the nut above. That may solve your clearance issue. Phillip if you dislodged your inner CV joint it will not go back on its own, it needs to be disassembled and the parts re-oriented. If you dislodged your inner joint, you would not be able to put the ball joint stud into the knuckle. Realize that the ball joint typically is riveted to the control arm so leaving the three bolts loose should not matter. I myself always torque those three bolts on the bench before returning the control arm to the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acklac7 Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Well I as able to get it. First I put the stud through the knuckle, then maneuvered the other end of the ball joint into the control arm, then installed the bolts to the control arm, then tightened the bolt to the stud. Just took her for a test drive around the block...Everything seemed fine, except for a loud ringing noise coming from either the power steering pump or the alternator. I’ve heard it before and I think it's normal. Needless to say it didn't correct the wheel-return problem...Still have to do the ball joint on the other side, maybe that will help. Anyone know where the upper strut mount bearings are located? Browsed the manual and couldn't find any info on them. A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Well I as able to get it. First I put the stud through the knuckle, then maneuvered the other end of the ball joint into the control arm, then installed the bolts to the control arm, then tightened the bolt to the stud. Just took her for a test drive around the block...Everything seemed fine, except for a loud ringing noise coming from either the power steering pump or the alternator. I’ve heard it before and I think it's normal. Needless to say it didn't correct the wheel-return problem...Still have to do the ball joint on the other side, maybe that will help. Anyone know where the upper strut mount bearings are located? Browsed the manual and couldn't find any info on them. They are part of the strut assembly, part of the strut mount.. see a recent thread by Kger2. He replaced his strut mount and said his returnability was better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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