94 Deville Concours Wander

[robert383]

Does anyone have a link to explain just what the ride control does for this model year? I do get an occasional "Service Ride Control" message but experiance intermitent driveablity problems. Best described as a feeling of driving on ice. Not a torque steer feeling but a half lane wander that comes and goes. Tires inflated correctly, an OK brand (Dunlop), etc. Everything seems tight at 91,000 miles and no signs of unusual tire wear. If the wander was consistant I would suspect a mechanical problem but comes and goes. Any thoughts? As the thought of a new tire purchase looms I am very leary of choosing a more agressive performance tire that may exagerate my daily driveablity issues. Love my Caddy but drives like crap from time to time.

[Scotty]

Wow this can be so many things. I would check these items:

Rear Knuckle Assemblies

Ball joints

Tie Rods

Steering Rack, make sure it is bolted down firmly someone else had a wander and he was missing bolts

Lower Control arm bushings

Strut rod bushings (doubtful)

Need an alignment, and you are dog tracking, causing the car to be unstable

Jack the car up and grab each wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock and see if you have play. Mike

PS the ride control I believe is related to your electronic struts, you could check each strut and level controls if you have them to make sure that everything is connected. My struts are bad, and when I hit bumps the tires will leave the road the the car will skip, but I don't get a wander.

[bigjayzway]

If you are running with a 75 series tire, I find these models don't like them too much.

I would also check what Scotty said too.

Big Jay

[Scotty]

Also grab the rear wheels at 12 and 6 o'clock to see if you have play...

[robert383]

Thank you for the ideas and will check them out. I guess the odd thing is this condition isn't consistant. Maybe 10% of the time on straight level freeway, 80 and no wind. Only thinking out loud but if I had a mechanical problem it would be more consistant and more obvious on less than perfect roads. Tire wear is perfect but that could be where the problem lies. Tires are Dunlop 225/60/16 and perhaps they are not the quality they once were. These are the tires that came on the car when I bought it so nothing to compare to. A better description would be it feels like air under the car and it feels light. Then again maybe this is just the way the car handles and I am being to critical. Again, thanks for the input.

[Scotty]

Thank you for the ideas and will check them out. I guess the odd thing is this condition isn't consistant. Maybe 10% of the time on straight level freeway, 80 and no wind. Only thinking out loud but if I had a mechanical problem it would be more consistant and more obvious on less than perfect roads. Tire wear is perfect but that could be where the problem lies. Tires are Dunlop 225/60/16 and perhaps they are not the quality they once were. These are the tires that came on the car when I bought it so nothing to compare to. A better description would be it feels like air under the car and it feels light. Then again maybe this is just the way the car handles and I am being to critical. Again, thanks for the input.

I have been thinking about your wander. The more that I drive my car, the more I think I understand your wander description. My Deville has a LOT of side motion, to where my skull tends to be thrown ever so slightly side to side toward the doors. I have the feeling that my car looses sight of what a straight line is. With no bumps she is a DREAM. The side to side motion happens almost always after I hit an expansion joint in the road at highway speeds... It causes me to lower my speed in the rain.

I believe the my struts are SO far gone that when I hit the expansion joint my tires are loosing contact with the road.. That combined with bad strut mounts and bad strut rod bushings that are allowing my wheel assemblies to change steering geometry due to looseness causing the side to side movement my skull feels when it reestablishes contact with the road... That is my diagnosis, and I will confirm this when I finally do my suspension work.. Its a skiddish feeling..and NOT very reassuring in the rain... Mike

I CAN NOT WAIT to pull the struts out and pump them to see how bad they are! That will be reported here for you all to benefit from. When I tear my front end apart and see the positive results I will be able to understand what parts were contributing to the problem. I can feel that my RH strut mount or ball joint is loose from the way it transfers shock ...I am replacing both. My right rear also slams at times so I know that the new struts are going to make a big difference. I will have some time this week to so work, I am slow with work, so I will report how it goes.

[Scotty]

By the way, my LF ball joint was totally shot where it would allow the bottom of the wheel to tilt out and it was putting trememdous pressure on my hub bearing and causing it to moan badly. The problem with ball joints is that its hard at times to actually see that they are bad. When I took the old one out, rotating the joint in my hands I could not feel obvious looseness. What I could feel was that it was comfortable or "looser" being moved in a certain axis. With the grease that is packed into it, it does not allow for easy manual inspection. BUT the new ball joint immediately tighten up my LF and the bottom of the wheel no longer squatted out... Not only that but a new joint is near impossible to move in your hands its so tight and it was not looser in a certain axis, which to me may be a clue that a ball joint is bad, the easy movement in a certain axis probably is the sign of wear in that axis.

If anyone knows the proper method of inspecting ball joints please post. There use to be a visual method. The problem with checking ball joints in our cars is that they are not under spring pressure, in old school front ends you could use a pry bar to check for loosness. Anyone?

[robert383]

Scotty,

My wander isn't quite as bad (thank God) but got a grin out of your description. From what I can gather the ride control on a 94' is nothing more than a 4 corner leveling device and I may be getting closer to solving my problem. It appears my left front sags after sitting over night but will level after a short drive. I wonder how often the system updates and perhaps I have a strut (LF) leaking that creates my problem. Still no luck deternining just what Cadillac had in mind with their (Ride Control) other than parts replacement can be heart stopping, LOL

[Scotty]

Mine is not bad at all, I was trying to explain what I was sensing. I got deeply into what I was feeling on the expressway the other day and tried to imagine what was causing the on ICE feeling...

You ONLY have air shocks in the rear, you do not have air shocks in the front so its not leaking down. The level controls tell the computer the position of the wheel so that it can control the struts active dampening. The dampening is also affected by vehicle speed and steering inputs..

You say "Still no luck deternining just what Cadillac had in mind with their (Ride Control) other than parts replacement can be heart stopping"

First of all, the expensive electronic OEM struts are NO LONGER available for your year. Lets remember that you have a car that is 12 model years old with 91K miles on it. This is from a 96 but it will give you an idea of how advanced this system is..so you won't think that a bunch of dumb ole boys work at Cadillac.. If the struts are shot have them replaced its amazing that they still work AT ALL given the age and mileage on your vehicle, NO WONDER you feel like you are on ICE, your tires are leaving the road as you no longer have dampening!

You can go with Arnot, Boston or Strut Master. Lets remember that before struts you would have changed your shock absorbers every 40,000 miles or so.. BELIEVE it or NOT, struts are VERY similar to shock absorbers....and last just about as long. When you replace yours they will no longer be controlled by the computer they will be passive.. and cheaper...

READ THIS:

http://doityourself.com/auto/shocksbad.htm

Here is an excerpt:

On a rough, winding road the driver of a car with worn shocks is in danger of losing control. Weak shocks or struts permit excessive rebound of the wheels, allowing them to become airborne. During this brief period the tire is in the air, it loses contact with the road surface. All steering and braking is lost.

[Scotty]

By the way, if you have original struts even if they were replaced at 40K, the lack of dampening has the effect of allowing your springs to accept way TOO much movement and they bottom out a lot. If you look into your wheel well with the wheel off you will notice that the coils on your front coil springs have touched and bottomed out due to the weak struts... You probably need springs at this point also, ESPECIALLY if you say you are sagging on the left front...you probably have a damaged spring

[TDK]

Robert383,

I got my '94 DCS Deville Concours Sedan at around 82,000 miles and have almost 100,000 more on it now. I had new passive struts put on the front about 4,000 miles ago to stop rattles.

Scotty has noted virtually everything sensible and relevant to what you are describing. Now its my turn for the other advice (and I might get lucky). How about the following stuff?

1. Are you certain it is not a front end alignment or 4-wheel alignment issue? This does not cost too much and might make a world of difference. I would have this done first.

2. Are the tires low on air (I run 28-32 #) ?

3. Are the tires damaged internally (loose plies)?

4. I don't think that "stabilizer bar bushings" were specifically noted in one of the lists that Scotty noted. However, make dang sure its a renowned front end shop to do the 4-wheel alignment and get them to check it over good. (they will any way I suppose if they are good and all) <_<

5. Regarding "I do get an occasional "Service Ride Control" message but experience intermittent driveablity problems." Avoid carting around the Mother-in-law in the trunk. A few hundred pounds of unsecured cargo like that can really throw off a Caddy's ride and then there is the problem of torn wires etc that need to be plugged back in. At the very least, a simple duct tape muzzle will silence most of the "messages". Remember that the Caddy's trunk was trial-tested with deceased (or at least bullet-riddled) mobsters, who did not create additional problems.

6. Try driving a few hundred miles on rough gravel roads at triple digits. That is bound to point out a specific problem, weakness or render the small problem - "moot". Granted, I managed to get gravel on top of the engine cover, but I never could break anything (so it passed!).

Good Luck !

[Scotty]

TDK, I get the feeling you are implying that I have hit the panic button with my reponses. If you read his posts he stated this:

I do get an occasional "Service Ride Control" message (possible strut problem)

Best described as a feeling of driving on ice (combined with, Service Ride Control, 91K mikes and 1994, I believe this is related to loss of traction from tire leaving the ground due to bad struts, I get the same feeling)

half lane wander that comes and goes (half a lane!)

Tires inflated correctly, an OK brand (Dunlop) OK

no signs of unusual tire wear OK, mechanically ok probably

If the wander was consistant I would suspect a mechanical problem but comes and goes (a mechanical problem could cause that come and go oddness also as the steering geometry changes)

Maybe 10% of the time on straight level freeway, 80 and no wind (alignment probably ok)

A better description would be it feels like air under the car and it feels light (possbily over inflated tires also possible that there is no strut dampening)

It appears my left front sags after sitting over night but will level after a short drive (sagging spring or collapsed coil as he said it will level, maybe the coil collapses while he is driving)

What made me think struts and springs was the feeling of driving over ICE and the sagging. I get the feeling of driving over ice when I hit an expansion joint in the road, causing the tire to leave the road. An alignment would be out 100% of the time, not 10% of the time but it would not hurt to check it, if he is dog tracking the car will feel unstable at certain times.

He did not specify that he was getting banging on bumps so the stabilizer bar bushing does not come to mind. This type of problem is not easy to diagnose, the car has not been inspected by a suspension specialist nor was the car jacked up and each wheel checked as a suggested.

As I stated the rear knuckles will have you all over the road! It should be put up on a lift immediately and checked for problems with it having a HALF A LANE DRIFT...THAT IS SERIOUS

[robert383]

Thanks for all the info and time spent. I would like to add a comment or two. A half lane drift was a bit of an exageration (seems like it at times) but a better description would be several feet. While my post may not reflect it cars have been my life and I think I have a pretty good feel for this car. I would hope I would feel the obvious and that is the hard part. Not consistant, no signs of tire wear, and bumpy roads have no effect other than a harsh ride (no rattles, etc). I will say the boys at the oil change joint under inflated the tires (usually tell them to leave the tires alone but that was the least of my concerns at the time). When I adjusted the tire pressure (higher) it made the problem more obvious/consistant. So will play with the tire pressures and see what happens. Still wonder if Dunlop may be a problem. The last Caddy I had was an 89' Deville and the torque steer was terrible on trips. In any event love my Caddy and thinking of moving up to an 00 or newer.

[Scotty]

In my first post I said this:

Jack the car up and grab each wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock and see if you have play, also grab the wheel 12 and 6 o'clock and see if there is any play. Check all four wheels.

What was the result of that test? If you have not done that test, please do it or have it done.

Nothing more can be done without some diagnosis, otherwise this becomes a guessing game.

As I said in my first post, many things can cause this. Your 'wander' is so bad (several feet as you say and I think that is bad), that it could be a tie rod, ball joint, hub bearing, rear knuckle, steering rack, bushings, etc. But to me that is serious enough that you should feel looseness in the front or rear suspension components or a worn part should be obvious. Without additional feedback, its impossible to opine further. I think it makes sense for you to have an experience front end/suspension mechanic look your car over. It is possible that you have an alignment problem causing you to dog track, wander or pull.

However, you mentioned something in your post that does not sound right and I want to set it straight. You said, "The last Caddy I had was an 89' Deville and the torque steer was terrible on trips". Torque steer usually occurs on hard acceleration, torque steer is NOT a constant pull. I suspect that you were experiencing a pull due to an alignment problem, but I can almost assure you that it was NOT torque steer, as I said, torque steer occurs on hard acceleration. Torque steer does not occur at highway speeds on long trips.

Let us know the results of your investigation, Thanks

[Scotty]

By the way here are descriptions of torque steer:

Torque steer is what happens when the front wheels are overpowered. Because they pivot to steer the car, routing too much power through them can jerk the wheels in either direction if you’re not paying attention or have a less-than-adequate grip on the wheel. The problem gets worse as power increases, and with 263 horses roaring through its front end (few front-wheel-drive cars have that much power, for exactly these reasons), the Eclipse has some of the worst torque steer of any car.

Another description

Torque Steer

The annoying tendency of some front-wheel drive vehicles to pull to one side when engine torque is applied. In other words, you step on the gas and the car wants to steer right or left.

[robert383]

Scotty,

I certainly respect your Cadillac knowledge and appreciate your many suggestions. In regard to the 89' Deville I do recall Cadillac had some problems with the steering rack and or power steering valving and that problem was refered to a torque steer issue at the time. In my case driving 8 or 900 miles non stop would result in aching forearms from constantantly "driving" the car without realizing it. I have only had 3 front wheel drive cars in my lifetime all of the Caddys. My first a 71 Eldo. I did have the ocassion to drive a pair of 95 Eldos over a period of time and remarked the only front wheel drive car I had driven that it wasn't obvious. Yes, I need to get this car on a hoist and check out the obvious. One of the problems in my area is finding a qualified tech that knows Cadillacs and willing to take a little time to locate the problem. Do to health issues my driveway action is somewhat limited and something as simple as getting an oil change at Valvoline can be down right scarry. A bad plug wire baffeled the local Cadillac dealer, caused numerious other problems and could have cost a fortune if I would have let them throw parts at it. ISC motor?, EGR passage clean, ignition module (not sure the correct term), cats plugged, fuel filter, fuel pump, etc. Back to basics. Open the hood after dark and bingo problem solved. That action also affirmed why people here say AC Delco wires are the only way to go with the Northstar. Yes, at 91,000 shocks and struts are certainly in order. Even choosing a replacment tire when the time comes can become complicated. Inflating the Dunlops to the recommended pressure(s) seemed to make the issue more evdident. Then again is a 58 dollar tire (GT Qualifier, on when purchased) a good tire? Anyway, I will figure it out as time allows and hope to share the results here. Thanks again, Bob

[JimD]

Robert:

There is one 'labor-only' fix that I would try if your car was my car. Do it yourself, or have someone you trust do this before you throw money at the problem. These easy-to-fix items should be eliminated as a possible cause of your "wander" condition.

Remove each wheel, brake caliper, and brake rotor. Remove any rust or other oxidation from the mutual contact surfaces of the hub, rotor, and wheel. A drill motor mounted wire brush will do the job.

Reinstall the pieces with attention to the bolt torque specifications. The wheel bolt tightening sequence and torque value is very important.

Been there, done that, with several front wheel drive vehicles.

[KHE]

In regard to the 89' Deville I do recall Cadillac had some problems with the steering rack and or power steering valving and that problem was refered to a torque steer issue at the time. In my case driving 8 or 900 miles non stop would result in aching forearms from constantantly "driving" the car without realizing it.

In the mid to late 80's GM FWD cars exhibited hard steering when the car was cold - this was due to o-rings degrading in the rack - the fix was to rebuild or replace the rack with a new unit. I recall many people referring to the symptom as morning sickness - it would go away after a few turns of the steering wheel.

My '86 Park Avenue had the rack problem - it showed up when he car was 10-11 years old so I just replaced the rack assembly and it's been fine ever since.

Torque steer is the pulling of the car one way or the other during hard acceleration - due to unequal length drive axles.

[Scotty]

In regard to the 89' Deville I do recall Cadillac had some problems with the steering rack and or power steering valving and that problem was refered to a torque steer issue at the time. In my case driving 8 or 900 miles non stop would result in aching forearms from constantantly "driving" the car without realizing it.

Thats really a shame. No car should do that, FWD or not. What you describe is dangerous and abnormal, who ever described it as torque steer, steered you wrong. Its a shame you can't find a good mechanic in your area. A good mechanic would have fixed that problem.