97 ETC: Black Smoke under acceleration

[Peter_Reinhard]

Hello.

The other day, a friend happened to be behind me on our way to work. At one point, I gave it about half throttle and noticed some smoke. At work, my buddy pointed that out, some black smoke.

Also, under WOT, I noticed even more.

Is this normal? Just carbon and needs to be beat on more?

(1997 ETC, with 64K miles)

By the way, I'm new to this car. Its gas mileage really is amazing for a V8. When going 70 mph highway, it will get up to 26 mpg. around town, 18. My normal driving is getting 22-23 which is amazing. However, when you put your foot into it the mileage REALLY goes down.

[JasonA]

Is this normal? Just carbon and needs to be beat on more?

(1997 ETC, with 64K miles)

Yes! It sounds like you just got it, and with only 64,000 miles for a '97, it was likely driven less often, on short trips, and with a lighter foot than Northstars like. Keep scooting around town with it, and don't be afraid to let it go all the way to redline. WOT = Wide Open Throttle. Give it some every now and again. You'll likely see a LOT of black smoke, but with time (and more WOT), that will subside.

[awise]

Peter,

Jadcock is right.

I experienced the same black smoke coming from my 98 Eldo ETC until I read that I needed to do some wide open throttle runs every now and then. I make a habit of holding my foot to the floor when getting on the highway several times a week, and now there is no more black smoke. These ponies like to run. It's exciting to watch the tachometer rev up past 6K RPM's while doing these "WOT" runs.

Good luck!

Alan Wise

[ed blaq]

Just figured I give a third. I bought my SLS with 70k from an old dude. He kept the car in great shape but the first thing I had to do was change the wires and plugs because they were quite fouled up. After that I began to do deliberate WOT excercses on a back road to burn off the carbon and help seal the rings ect...

the best way to WOT excercise is... find a long stretch of road , put the car in 2nd gear and get up to 40mph then punch it, at about 75 or 80 mph let off the gas and let the engine brake back down to 40mph do this a couple of times a week. Your Northstar will love this, that is what they want WOT.

[Peter_Reinhard]

I understand the benefits of full acceleration, however, considering all of the headgasket problems that have been reported on this site, is it possible that if you beat on the car you will cause more stress in all areas, including the gasket?

(The head gasket sounds like a time bomb, lurking around)

And while I agree that the N* is a truely efficient high-powered V8, (26 mpg on hwy!) it sure has a design defect in the head gasket department. My 1998 CK1500 had its intake manifold gasket replaced before 100 Kmiles. That just seems to me like poor quality, or a bad design. Since the small block305 cu engine has been around for eons, I assume the design is ok so they must have quality problems at GM. Now the N* is a relatively new motor, and maybe it is just a design bug and not quality. Either way, major engine faults should not be happening, or be extremely rare. (just my 2 cent ramble)

[JasonA]

I understand the benefits of full acceleration, however, considering all of the headgasket problems that have been reported on this site, is it possible that if you beat on the car you will cause more stress in all areas, including the gasket?

If you run any car at WOT, then sure, you're stressing the gaskets more. "All the head gasket problems" are extremely rare, when you consider the number of cars out there. The chances of you having a head gasket problem are rare. Many of us have 150k miles or more on the original gaskets and do WOTs every day. I'm almost there...146,000 miles myself. My engine hasn't even had a cam cover off it. I completely trust the engine at full throttle. I think the potential damage by NOT running it hard every once in a while (like excessive carbon buildup and piston slap) outweighs the potential damage from an engine letting go under WOT. Besides, it doesn't take WOT to cause an engine bolt to back out (creating a head gasket leak). With these cars, the head gasket never really fails I don't think. The problem, if you're going to have it, is the threads in the block will fail and the bolt will lose tension, allowing a physical gasket leak. But again, pretty rare overall.

[Scotty]

Based on your statements below, its obvious that you are both mis-informed and un-informed. Here are your statements:

"it sure has a design defect in the head gasket department." My 1998 CK1500 had its intake manifold gasket replaced before 100 Kmiles. That just seems to me like "poor quality, or a bad design". "Since the small block305 cu engine has been around for eons", "I assume the design is ok so they must have quality problems at GM". Now the N* is a relatively new motor, and maybe "it is just a design bug and not quality". "Either way, major engine faults should not be happening, or be extremely rare"

Ok, so you have a lot of strong opinions, but don't present a strong argument.

1) A design defect, how in what way, are you an engineer?

2) What is a CK1500? Mercedes?

3) Unless I am wrong, the 305 ci engine is a Chevy? That is a CAST IRON block, unless I am mistaken, that is APPLES AND ORANGES if it is cast iron.

4) Using that cast iron engine THEN to point to problems at GM because aluminum engines have a higher head-gasket failure rate then CAST IRON is wrong then isn't it?

5) what % of NS's do you think need head-gaskets?

You see I come from the school of thought that, I am thrilled to be driving one of the top 10 engines in the world. I am totally intrigued with the design, efficiency, power and advanced control systems, I was around in the 50's and 60's when Cadillac put every engine on a DYNO before they installed it in my Dad's rocketship Cadillac. Given that GM is focused on reducing fuel consumption and emissions by producing a powerful and light powerplant and seriously improving fuel consumption and emissions, while getting 275 HP out of 279 CU, I sit back and say, I can put up with this new direction and technology and I want to ride along with it. This is a really cool system the Northstar it is. Cast Iron blocks have been in production for 100 years, alumunum engines given their age are incredible. Do me a favor however and read the following article written in 2000. You like to call the head gasket problems that the NS has a DESIGN DEFECT and you say it WITH AUTHORITY don't you? When you read the following, you will understand that the aluminum engine "DESIGN DEFECTS" that you point to are prevalent in the entire aluminum engine industry. CAST IRON was darn near indestructible and head gasket problems were unheard of. The only time I EVER replaced head-gaskets was when I did a valve job.

PLEASE read the following and you will begin to understand aluminum more and I hope you back off the idea that this is a GM/NS thing, this is a GLOBAL energy efficiency THING that forced the auto industry to go toward light weight aluminum!

One thing I would LOVE to see is CADILLAC engines in INDY, FORMULA 1 and IRL racing, they should be tested and improved under fire. Not just the Corvette engines, the NS engines, they want to sell, PUT that NS out there and test it and win under fire! Does anyone remember the baby NS in the Olds Aurora and the Aurora engine racing at INDY? TO ME that is the direction GM/CADILLAC needs to go, create excitement, sexieness, power, mystique. All I see out there is HONDA, AUDI, etc... COMPETE DANG IT! KICK SOME HONDA *smurf*!

By the way, this development direction of Cast Iron to Alumunum is the save as the development of Vinyl Records and turn tables to Digitized Music and CD players. Real music nuts have felt that CD was edgy, could not product the tonal quality, did not have the depth of field or 'air' that VINYL had....... DUH, CD is only how many years old? and records, cartidges, recording techiques, turn tables, and tone arms have been in development for how long? My last cartridge was my Mission it was a moving coil cartridge with a BORON cantilever and specially shape diamond putting out such a small voltage....and it was $550 for the cartridge! Forget the $3,000 turntable/arm that weighed 50 pounds. I wonder how incredible digital music will be in 60 years? Aluminum is developing and developing fast along with the maintenance and durability knowledge.

READ THIS

*******************************************************************

aluminum in the news

YOUR WHEELS; IRON'S DAYS ARE NUMBERED AS AUTO MAKERS CAST THEIR LOT WITH ALUMINUM

By Ralph Vartabedian

Los Angeles Times

October 18 , 2000 - Sheng Ingram is a believer in aluminum-block engines, thanks to his 1987 Acura Integra, which has clocked more than 200,000 miles without a major repair.

"Believe me, motorists can put their trust in an aluminum engine--at least Honda's," Ingram says, referring to the Japanese maker of the Acura luxury line. "Mine is running great and needs less than a half-quart of oil between oil changes every 4,000 miles."

But not everybody with aluminum engines is so enamored. The history of aluminum-block engines is full of disappointment and premature failure owing to warped cylinder heads, leaking seals, blown gaskets and worn cylinders.

As the auto industry abandons traditional cast iron in engine blocks and cylinder heads, consumers are clearly mixed in their acceptance of aluminum. Cast iron has a history and a reputation that are hard to dispute. When prehistoric humans needed tools, they learned to make use of iron, and the metal has symbolized durability and strength ever since.

Engine blocks, of course, are the heart of a quality engine, allowing efficient cooling and tight tolerances for crankshaft bearings, piston rings and camshafts. Auto makers have been casting with iron for a century and have significantly refined their processes in recent decades.

But there is a major shift to aluminum, and so many new aluminum engine designs are coming on the market that the capacity for casting aluminum blocks is one of the limitations holding back the phaseout of iron.

What's driving the trend is the continuing effort to cut vehicle weight and improve fuel economy. General Motors Corp.'s newest four-cylinder engine, for example, has an aluminum block that weighs 49 pounds, compared with 77 pounds for an equivalent four-cylinder with a cast-iron block. But aluminum is more expensive, costing about $ 2.50 per pound to cast, versus 40.5 cents per pound for iron, GM says.

The weight savings from the block typically can be doubled by reducing structural weight elsewhere in a vehicle, says Otto Willenbockel, GM's executive director of engine engineering.

GM, the world's largest auto maker, still builds most of its engine blocks out of cast iron, but it has introduced about half a dozen aluminum engines in the last few years and the majority of its new engine designs are aluminum.

Willenbockel, a German-trained engineer, says contemporary aluminum engines have reached parity with iron in their ability to provide long service and withstand consumer abuse.

"From a durability standpoint, there is no difference when you design it to the same targets," Willenbockel says. "You can design the strength you need."

Yet he acknowledges that many consumers remain unpersuaded, particularly truck buyers. All GM trucks are powered by cast-iron engines, though the company is preparing for its first aluminum truck engine. GM will introduce its Vortec 4200, a 4.2-liter inline-6 aluminum engine with 270 horsepower, for its 2002 Chevrolet TrailBlazer and Oldsmobile Bravada sport-utility vehicles.

All GM engines use cast-iron cylinder liners, either pressed or cast into the block. That ensures that even with aluminum blocks, the pistons and rings get the benefit of iron's hardness.

James Conley, a Northwestern University professor and an expert in engine casting, concurs that auto industry advances--first in Japan and Europe, and more recently in the U.S.--have made aluminum the equal of iron in terms of durability.

***

Despite advances in aluminum engines, they still cannot withstand overheating, contaminated oil or dirty coolant the way cast-iron blocks can, says Bill Whitney, president of Prestige Engine Co., a Dallas specialist in remanufacturing aluminum-block engines.

"They are definitely subject to premature failure," he says. "Aluminum-block engines are subject to blown intake and exhaust gaskets. They are the weak links in the chain."

The most serious problems with engines that use aluminum have come from two sources: designs that match aluminum heads and cast-iron blocks, and those that do not use cast-iron cylinder liners.

Aluminum heads mated to cast-iron blocks require carefully designed head gaskets. Ford Motor Co.'s 3.8-liter V-6 engines, for example, have a history of blown head gaskets and have been the subject of a contentious recall.

Owners of some BMW 530i, 540i, 740i and 840i cars built in the mid-1990s say they have experienced serious problems with M60 engines that use nickel coating on the aluminum cylinder walls. BMW has extended the warranty on vehicles equipped with M60 engines to six years or 100,000 miles.

Problems like those, however, are not going to reverse the industry trend toward aluminum. Aircraft, spacecraft and military vehicles have proved the validity of high-strength aluminum, according to the aluminum industry.

"You are going to see nothing but aluminum engines in the future," said Richard Klimisch, an Aluminum Assn. executive. "Safety, handling, acceleration, braking all gets better. That's what we're trying to sell."

Reproduced with permission from the Los Angeles Times.

Copyright 2000.

All rights reserved.

By using aluminum for the front fenders and hood, Ford engineers were able to improve handling balance in the 2002 Explorer.

Did you know?

Aluminum can make vehicles lighter, so they require less fuel to get around - and can ultimately save tons of greenhouse gas emissions.

More »

Aluminum performs as well or better in a crash than conventional steel-structured cars.

More »

Taking weight out generally increases driving performance related to handling, acceleration and braking.

More »

The design flexibility of aluminum is unparalleled, allowing designers to engineer optimum shape and performance for each specific application.

More »

[awise]

Peter,

I've owned my 98 ETC for four and one half years now. I bought it with 31,000 miles and it now has just a few miles shy of 149,000 miles. In that time it has gone to Mexico with me for two years while I ran my company's manufacturing operation down there, and all over the continental US of A. Through all of this other than normal oil, filters. sark plugs, tires, brake pads, etc..., all I have replaced are two O2 sensors, one battery, one water pump and hoses (last weekend), and one rim that cracked. Knock wood that I have never had a head gasket issue. But at this point I figure that I am way ahead of the game with this car. Last month my wife and I drove from home (the Boston area) to my dad's home in Illinois and back averaging 25.3 miles per gallon while driving 75-80 mph on the highway.

As far as the WOT thing goes, I have actually noticed a slight increase in responsiveness, and gas mileage as a result.

As a Mechanical Engineer I find myself in awe of what the GM Engineers have provided us with.

As a long time muscle car guy (past = 2- 69 Camaro SS's, 1-68 AMC-AMX, 1-72 AMC-AMX, 1-66 Merc. Cyclone, 1- 70 Boss 302), I love the combination of raw power and ease of maintanence that my Eldo gives me.

Go do some WOT's (we used to call it WFO's but that's not politically correct now).

and enjoy your Eldo.

Best Regards, Alan Wise

[Oldgamer]

Only my 2 cents:

I remember when I only opened that forum and didn't even now B * B * O *B 's name, I saw posting (I guess it was Ranger). He got a problem right after WOT. Some noise, something happened, I don't remember now. I remember that B*B*O*B said some how, that if something happened after WOT, it means some parts getting weak, almost gone and they might break tomorrow anyway. Well, I better not to make it sooner

I made a WOT a month ago and 150 miles later I paid for transmission $2000 (and I didn't even see a black smoke!) . May be it's not related of course, nobody knows for sure. What I want to say is: I beleive that WOT is a good thing, but you should do it IF YOU REALLY NEED IT. I try to diagnose what happened in my case and only can see that some debris was sucked into the filter just because of very high RPMs and pressure. Otherwize this debris can lay on a bottom 20-30K miles more.

Talking about headgaskets: I beleive that WOT doesn't create a lot of stress on gaskets. I remember B*O*B says that these forses are very smal and short in comparising with other loads. Much more effect makes overheating.

[CaddyChris]

One thing I would LOVE to see is CADILLAC engines in INDY, FORMULA 1 and IRL racing, they should be tested and improved under fire.  Not just the Corvette engines, the NS engines, they want to sell, PUT that NS out there and test it and win under fire!   Does anyone remember the baby NS in the Olds Aurora and the Aurora engine racing at INDY?  TO ME that is the direction GM/CADILLAC needs to go, create excitement, sexieness, power, mystique.  All I see out there is HONDA, AUDI, etc...  COMPETE DANG IT!  KICK SOME HONDA *smurf*!

Scotty,

Don't you remember this:

Cadillac gave up...I wrote them an email way back as to why and they didn't give me a concrete explanation.

here is an article

http://www.fast-autos.net/cadillac/cadillaclmp02.html

the pic is from that page

[The_Raven]

Howyadoin,

The Le Mans effort was not well supported by the factory, compared to the megabucks that Audi and BMW invest in their Le Mans programs. Check out the Speed GT series, the CTS-V is doing quite well there.

http://www.world-challenge.com/

Also, the "Aurora" IRL engine, if I recall correctly, was not at all related to the 4.0 "Shortstar" engine that was in the real Aurora.

-Rav

[Scotty]

Howyadoin,

The Le Mans effort was not well supported by the factory, compared to the megabucks that Audi and BMW invest in their Le Mans programs. Check out the Speed GT series, the CTS-V is doing quite well there.

http://www.world-challenge.com/

Also, the "Aurora" IRL engine, if I recall correctly, was not at all related to the 4.0 "Shortstar" engine that was in the real Aurora.

-Rav

While that may be true, they called the INDY engine the Aurora engine and it was a very good marketing idea...

[Scotty]

I remember our friend saying how the NS engine was run 1/2 to WOT for almost 300 hours, think about that!

[Scotty]

One thing I would LOVE to see is CADILLAC engines in INDY, FORMULA 1 and IRL racing, they should be tested and improved under fire.  Not just the Corvette engines, the NS engines, they want to sell, PUT that NS out there and test it and win under fire!   Does anyone remember the baby NS in the Olds Aurora and the Aurora engine racing at INDY?  TO ME that is the direction GM/CADILLAC needs to go, create excitement, sexieness, power, mystique.  All I see out there is HONDA, AUDI, etc...  COMPETE DANG IT!  KICK SOME HONDA *smurf*!

Scotty,

Don't you remember this:

Cadillac gave up...I wrote them an email way back as to why and they didn't give me a concrete explanation.

here is an article

http://www.fast-autos.net/cadillac/cadillaclmp02.html

the pic is from that page

I remember they stopped abruptly, I guess its hard to support this type of frivoulous spending when your stock is hurting and you are losing money. But, to me, the REASON your stock it hurting is because you are NOT doing these types of things..... Its development

[Peter_Reinhard]

Thanks Scotty and awise for the response. I was hoping to get sometihing going.

Yes, I am probably mis-informed. Thanks for the good read and thoughtful replies.

I still stand by my statement that it sounds like a design defect. And I like aluminum engines. What is the deal with the head bolts? They thread a steel bolt into an aluminum block, without a heli-coil-type insert? And then the "time-sert" brand of sleeve is used and the problem is solved forever? (I'm not sure. Please correct me if that is not right). However, like I said, I appreciate the Northstar engineering in general. It certainly is not my fathers Cadillac (he had a 472 cu BIG car, 1972 I think. He also had a '53 with those "tits" on the front.)

For the record, I am an electrical engineer. I have been working in the defense industy for 28 years. We make equipment for harsh environments. Dissimilar metals always cause a problem.

I used to race a 1965 389 GTO, w/tri-power at New England Dragway. It had a unique tracktion bar setup made by Bill Jenkins himself. I was what you would call a motor head. The CK1500 is the standard chevy 1/2 ton pickup.

I think I notice less black smoke already.

Regarding: "what % of NS's do you think need head-gaskets?"

I asked that question on the sister site (the Eldo forum) and got a bunch of people to comment. But given the nature of the survey, (15% failures?) it was too much conjecture. It CAN'T be that high or there would have been a recall. I think one way to get credible data is to survey Cadillac dealers, and ask their mechanics. I'd be interesed to see a poll of that. Or from GM: "We sold X Northstar engines. Y have had head gasket failures." Yes, that would be the ticket. I really am curious; if its 1 in 100, those odds aren't too bad.

Anyway, I'm happy I got a few of you fired-up. Thanks again. This is a great web site.

Regards

Pete Reinhard

[Scotty]

We have had this dissimilar metal discussion before, I will see if the thread is still around, if I recall it was a SPIRITED discussion.... Unfortunately the thread that explained this has been erased...

[ted tcb]

Regarding percentage of northstar engines requiring rebuilt heads, I agree that 15% figure on a web forum is highly suspect ... people searching the forum are not the typical sample group of owners ... we search the web because we are enthusiast in search of answers to problems which already exist.

I've spoken to two different dealer service techs this week in Orillia ... I asked both of them if they've had many Northstars in for blown heads. The answer was 1 .... granted, these are dealers that may only service an area of 50,000 people, but I bet the answer to my question at the Ford (3.8 litre Taurus) or the Chrysler (Neon) dealer would've come up with more than 1 headgasket job.

The negative to doing so few headgaskets is that the Caddy tech mentioned helicoils on the Northstar rebuild ... that ain't gonna work.

[Scotty]

Peter, it sounds like you an I are close in age based on your fathers Cadillacs. The 53 had tits yes, but kind of a B cup, my dads 55 now that was a rack! That was our first cadillac, then we got a 59, 62, 64, 65, 66, 68, I got a 66 and 68, 74 and 91 and now 96. I have rebuilt a 66 429 and a 68 Turbo Hydramatic tranny and a Turbo Hydramatic 350. Before the 55 Cadillac Fleetwood (had AC in the rear, pretty cool) we had a 54 Packard Carabean Convertible, everything was hydraulic on it including he windows, brakes and TOP, when the hydralic PUMP under the hood was weak, nothing worked including the brakes...

I thought that article would put us on the same page but I guess not. I try not to think of the higher incidence of head gasket problems on aluminum engines as a defect I think of it as an inherent characteristic of an aluminum engine. The article spoke of aluminum engines as a whole having the potential for problems and how the public was wary. I see Cadillac making strides like they used to do with these engines 4.1, 4.5, 4.9, 4.0, 4.6, 3.6. I see the Northstar platform maturing and getting incredibly better every year..

As far as the dissimilar metals goes, what do you think they should use as bolts aluminum? EVERY car manufacturer uses dissimilar metals. I think the bolts are nickel plated to minimize the chances of galvanic corrosion. Changing the coolant and keeping it fresh is obviously very important in these engines. How many people do you know that never lift their hood? How many people do you think have driven their GREEN coolant more than 24,000 miles and 24 months? or taken the DEXCOOL beyond 50,000 miles and 5 years? How about owners NOT having a clue and overheating the engine badly? Now the car ends up in your driveway and you are wondering WTF is wrong, but its the result of a car that was neglected. I would be VERY reluctant to buy a NS that I did not know the history on. Keep an open mind about this, I had to relearn a lot of things that I totally took for granted.

[Scotty]

55 Cadillac rack!

[Scotty]

53 Cadillac

[Scotty]

55 Cadillac....

[ted tcb]

55 Cadillac rack!

I think the correct term is "Dagmars", named after the voluptuous tv personality.