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SLUGGISH START?? HELP


jamesg

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Replaced battery and alternator. 93 STS acts as if it don't want to turn over. It starts but very sluggish. Plz don't tell me it is the starter, just was in the cradle a couple of weeks ago for the alternator. A night mare. One mechanic shop states it is the battery from Sears and Sears claims the alternator is inoperative and sent me back to the mechanic shop. Who is right? Can a starter drain a battery? The AC will shut off and show no msg or warning similar to the msg when low on refrigerate shutting off compressor msg. The AC will then suddenly come back on. There are no codes stating the alternator is bad. In fact I have no current codes at all. Plz give your input. Electrical or what? Battery recharged fully again still starts sluggish. This car will be parked in the garage sooner than predicted as my collector item if the problems don't stop coming again. When it rains it pours with this car.

v/r

93 STS

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What do the volts read before you start the car?

I replaced a 3 year old battery 2 weeks ago because it was on it's last legs, with the same symptoms you describe.

It has been discussed before that a new battery is not necessarily a 'peach'.

Check that the battery volts are well above 12 with just the key on...not running...to see how much juice is on tap.

" ...'took my Cobra down t' the track, hitched to the back o' my Cadillac..."

- Jan & Dean, 'hey little cobra'

Scott

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James,

What do you mean by sluggisgh? Do you mean that the engine turns over slowly, or seems to misfire until all cylinders catch and then run good?

A bad starter can run down the battery, or it could be just a bad connection in the wires from the battery.

If it turns over slowly, thats low voltage to the starter (dirty connection). If it misfires, it could mean bad wires or plugs (tune up).

Although it has happened, I think GM put the starter there 'cause they didn't expect it to go out often. Clean all the connections that you can get to and see if it helps! Ed

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James,

  What do you mean by sluggisgh? Do you mean that the engine turns over slowly, or seems to misfire until all cylinders catch and then run good?

  A bad starter can run down the battery, or it could be just a bad connection in the wires from the battery.

  If it turns over slowly, thats low voltage to the starter (dirty connection). If it misfires, it could mean bad wires or plugs (tune up).

  Although it has happened, I think GM put the starter there 'cause they didn't expect it to go out often. Clean all the connections that you can get to  and see if it helps!                                    Ed

I agree with Ed 100%. Your car is 12 years old... All connections to the starter and solenoid should be disconnected, cleaned, reconnected with new star washers etc. New jumpers from the battery will not hurt either. Just recently replaced a starter and I am pretty sure the old starter was still operational. Grounds, cables,

connections...

EDIT: It is the battery what starts the car not the alternator. Your readings sounds good. Loadtest the battery somewhere else, and if it is ok check out all the cables and connections.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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Before I replaced the starter I would want to make sure that acid did not wick up into the battery cables over the last 13 years and grossly increase the resistence of the positive cable. Look at your positive cable very closely for corrosion in the strands, try to bend it within a foot of the terminal and then bend it further away, if it is hard to bend its an indication that corrosion has leached into the cable possibly increasing the resistance... Check all grounds... Have the battery LOAD TESTED by a third party shop... What is your charging voltage reading immediately after startup, when the car is at operating temp and at a stop light?

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Sluggish start means slow turning over. I replaced poles 3 years ago, Sears also replaced die hard battery 3 weeks ago when the new alternator was replaced. The battery is operating from 12.5 to 13.5. We rechared it at the mechanic shop, still slow turn over. We got the battery up to 14.0. I went back to Sears and their computer stated inoperative alternator. However I have no current codes. 2 die hard batteries cannot be bad.

v/r

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Sluggish start means slow turning over. I replaced poles 3 years ago, Sears also replaced die hard battery 3 weeks ago when the new alternator was replaced. The battery is operating from 12.5 to 13.5. We rechared it at the mechanic shop, still slow turn over. We got the battery up to 14.0. I went back to Sears and their computer stated inoperative alternator. However I have no current codes. 2 die hard batteries cannot be bad.

v/r

Is that an AC DELCO alternator? If not we have heard many having trouble with aftermarket alternators, something to do with the S terminal maybe? NO WAY would i use an aftermarket alternator only new or an AC Delco rebuilt at the worst...

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I think you are right!! Aftermarket I am sure. This particular Mom and PoP shop use NAPA parts on all my vehicles. There is a lot of finger pointing right now, Sears diagnostic states the alternator is inoperative and the Mechanic shop I use recharged my battery up to 14.0 however still a slow start with no mis-fire. They say the battery is bad even after they recharged it with a slow start right before their eyes. I replaced the connectors 3 years ago when I bought the die hard. Sears replaced the die hard twice with no objection. I have to take Sears side over the mechanic shop. The shop have great mechanics, however they don't know much about the NS and their proud will not let them admit it.

v/r

93 STS

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I think you are right!! Aftermarket I am sure. This particular Mom and PoP shop use NAPA parts on all my vehicles. There is a lot of finger pointing right now, Sears diagnostic states the alternator is inoperative and the Mechanic shop I use recharged my battery up to 14.0 however still a slow start with no mis-fire. They say the battery is bad even after they recharged it with a slow start right before their eyes. I replaced the connectors 3 years ago when I bought the die hard. Sears replaced the die hard twice with no objection. I have to take Sears side over the mechanic shop. The shop have great mechanics, however they don't know much about the NS and their proud will not let them admit it.

v/r

93 STS

What bothers me about what you just said is this, "they recharged the battery up to 14 however still a slow start with no mis-fire". After the battery was recharged it STILL turned over slowly? That is NOT good....and indicative of a starter circuit problem NOT an alternator problem as the battery was fully charged... ONE THING, have the battery LOAD TESTED..... to check for a bad cell...

When you say this "The battery is operating from 12.5 to 13.5" do you mean on the cars DIGITAL VOLTAGE readout while the car is running?

You said, you replaced "the connectors" do you mean the cables? If your mechanic is sharp he will be able to perform a current draw test on startup to see what your starter is drawing, check the manual for the procedure.

To me, this is either 1) Bad grounds, 2) Bad Cables, or 3) your starter is weak from binding, bearings or bad brushes. I do not believe this is an alternator problem..

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Of course, alternator has nothing to do with slow cranking.

It can be bad starter/connections or mechanical problem (I remember somebody had problem with A/C bearing for example). I don't think it's a battery problem in that case.

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The battery is operating at 12.5 - 13.5 with the car running and no AC. With the AC running it will drop down to 11.5 - 11.9. The AC will sometime shut off during the day with high temps outside, with no warnings or current code. The AC will then come back on still no current codes. The connectors were replaced when I purchased the die hard in Sep 2003. The cables were not replaced if I remember correctly. The battey was recharged fully and still a slow sluggish start with no mis-fire. The engine will slowly turn over as you release the key in the ignition.

v/r

93 STS

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Of course, alternator has nothing to do with slow cranking.

It can be bad starter/connections or mechanical problem (I remember somebody had problem with A/C bearing for example). I don't think it's a battery problem in that case.

Of Course? It might have been the problem IF the alternator was not keeping the battery charged... He made this statement above

"I went back to Sears and their computer stated inoperative alternator. However I have no current codes. 2 die hard batteries cannot be bad", so it was NOT clear since SEARS stated it was the ALTERNATOR....

It was not until he said "the Mechanic shop I use recharged my battery up to 14.0 however still a slow start with no mis-fire" that it became clear that it was NOT the alternator in my humble opinion.

You bring up a very good point that it could be an AC HUB bearing....

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The battery is operating at 12.5 - 13.5 with the car running and no AC. With the AC running it will drop down to 11.5 - 11.9. The AC will sometime shut off during the day with high temps outside, with no warnings or current code. The AC will then come back on still no current codes. The connectors were replaced when I purchased the die hard in Sep 2003. The cables were not replaced if I remember correctly. The battey was recharged fully and still a slow sluggish start with no mis-fire. The engine will slowly turn over as you release the key in the ignition.

v/r

93 STS

EXPLAIN CONNECTORS? Do you mean the battery cable ends? I really hope not!

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Roger DAT,

the ends not the cables were replaced 3 years ago. I went out side and started up the vehicle again, Volts on displays went up to 13.6 with engine running in park. Still no codes with slow turn over. I will replace cables tomorrow morning and see what happens. The cables may have been changed, they look really great no damage. I will have to look in the glove compartment for maint receipts and entries on the GM log from caddy in the maint book. Right now I cannot remember if I changed them, again I looked and feeled the cables over very carefully. No visible damage. If I cannot find documentation, I will replaced them any ways.

v/r

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james, the problem I have with the cable ends is that they tend to add resistance, and corrode over time, if I am not mistaken you have two positive cables connected to the positive terminal of the battery am I right? If you do do they have a lead lug between them?

When they replaced the cable ends were they soldered on, crimped on or did they have those screw type clamp connections? Don't jump the gun and replace the cables, you are going to need to do some diagnosis, does it appear that the cables are making GOOD connections with those new cable ends? Replacing the battery cables will be expensive and time consuming if I am not mistaken, check the ends to make sure they are making perfect connection, you may want to install new ends and have them soldered on...to eliminate them as the problem

ALSO consider what Oldgamer stated that you have some mechanical drag on the engine like a bad AC HUB bearing. When the engine is running do you hear any accessory noise, whine, chirping, etc?

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Checked for noise with engine running first then with AC full blast, no noise. The compressor is even running fine. The battery votlage on the display at 13.1 with AC on Hi. NO NOISE. Checked cables and ends again all look very clean. Besides we checked them 3-4 weeks when the alternator went out. However the negative pole on the end of the cable may have been damaged by me 3-4 weeks ago. Will change tomorrow.

v/r

93 STS

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Checked for noise with engine running first then with AC full blast, no noise. The compressor is even running fine. The battery votlage on the display at 13.1 with AC on Hi. NO NOISE. Checked cables and ends again all look very clean. Besides we checked them 3-4 weeks when the alternator went out. However the negative pole on the end of the cable may have been damaged by me 3-4 weeks ago. Will change tomorrow.

v/r

93 STS

The connections on the starter, solenoid, engine block are more vulnerable to corrosion than ones on the battery end.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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:o HUH? Adallac, Can you explain? I always thought it was the other way around. I have never seen corrsion on that end.

Ranger,

I ment 4.9 engines where the starter area is easily accessible for road salt, rain, snow whatever is on the road...The battery is not as much exposed to that stuff. All the studs and connections are pretty rusted on mine. The corrosion caused with battery itself is a different story. My battery contacts have alwyas been clean.

Sorry confused NS with 4.9.

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent

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UPDATE on slow turn over. Left 93 STS at the Mechanic Shop since Sat 13Aug2005. Yesterday I called to see if it was ready and I was told it was the starter not the alternator. I called this morning to come by and pick it up. I was told it would be ready by 1:30 pm when I arrived to pick it up. The shop owner and the Shop Manager were there today. The shop Mgr whom was on vacation last week and the owner was out of town. Usually the Shop Mgr always check my STS, so he came out and told me that after trying to start up the engine today the inoperative alternator had caused the die hard battery to drain again. SEARS was right, the alternator was inoperative. I could not find the other Shop Mgr that had argued with me and yelled at the other mechanics for agreeing with me on Fri. I wanted to see his face. At this time the Owner got involved. It was also determined that the starter was draging also. At this point the Owner agreed to waive all labor and send the alternator back to NAPA. I requested a AC Delco alternator this time explaining that I thought the replacement alternator was a AC Delc parts, which was $101.00 difference. He agreed and knock off $51.00 more bucks. I called the Caddy Dealer and a Starter goes for $232.00. I may go by the dealership's parts dept tomorrow morning and get a starter and have them install it while they are in that neck of the woods. I have learned my lesson no more aftermarket parts. No more Mom and Pop Shops working on Caddy. The other vehciles they may service but not the Caddy. With my 12 - 18 hours 6 days a week work sked, I may bite the bullet and start back going to the Caddy Dealer for service.

v/r

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UPDATE FRIDAY 19AUG2005: Drove car home from mechanic shop after they installed a new AC Delco Alternator, car died in my driveway. I was so upset, had enough this car is going to the dealer and let them staright it out no matter the cost. So I called a tow truck to get it to the the Caddy Dealer. Battery once again drained. The other mechanic shop claimed that I should have installed a new Starter while they were inside the cradle with the alternator. The start was slow and sound like it was the soleniods dragging. Everyone was again convienced it was the starter and a weak battery, even the tow truck driver and my neighibors. So I called the experienced 30 year Mechanic at the Caddy Dealer that knows me and always make sure I am not over charged for unneccessay repairs and informed him that I was towing my STS to the dealership, he warned me that he was the heavy Tranny and Engine Mechanic and he was back logged with big vehicles and would not be able to look at my vehicle. So another older gentleman a Caddy Mechanic looked at the vehcile, ran electrical checks with no current codes all history codes of loss of memory and data. He immediatly determined it was the Battery and not the starter for the slow dragging start. He also the alternator and the started tested operative. So I got a new battery and picked the car up. I turned the AC on and pulled up to my Truck to remove items for my son to drive the truck home. I cut the vehicle off and placed my items in the STS from the truck, still at the dealership I turned the key and the STS was dead again. So the Service Advisors came out and called the mechanic out to explain the New Battery and no start. He immediatly checked the Battery cables and determined someone had put a bolt style end connector on the negative cable and the postive cable needed a spacer. So he advised me to go to K-Mart and get the bolts for 3-4 bucks. I replied no, I want the parts from here, I am not leaving the grounds of the dealership until i am confident the car will start. so they got the vehicle back to garage and installed new spacers and bolts on the battery cable. The mechanic brought the STS back out and said I was good to go, stating he turned the key 11 times and the car started with no dragging. I then went thru the same process of getting my items out of my truck again turning on the AC and turned off the ignition. After placing my items in the STS to drive home, I turned the key again, car dead as a door knob right in front of the dealership area where the services advisors the customers and the dealership attendants were looking at the look on my face asking a million quesitions, are they ever going to get you off the lot. Well the mechanics got the vehicle back into their air condition clean caddy repair shop again and this time got it right. It turned out the GROUND WIRE running down from the battery cable to a bolt underneath was not tight. I came so close to purchasing a starter I did not need and I also the best thing out of the hold ordeal was, I finally left a new car dealer ship and spent only $68 bucks. The car is starting fine with no dragging, making it sound like the starter is going bad or the battery is dead. This summer I have not been on vacation, working OT and 12-18 hours per day, I have spent most of the summers in several different shops with different mechanics mis-diagnoising the STS. Even the Caddy dealer takes several times to get it right.

v/r

James

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JAMES, look at my previous post I said:

"james, the problem I have with the cable ends is that they tend to add resistance, and corrode over time, if I am not mistaken you have two positive cables connected to the positive terminal of the battery am I right? If you do do they have a lead lug between them?"

You stated "He immediatly checked the Battery cables and determined someone had put a bolt style end connector on the negative cable and the postive cable needed a spacer."

THAT is what I was trying to get at, the spacer that you referred to is a lead lug that is placed between the two positive cables so that both make a good connection to the battery....... Yeah! Glad to see I was honed in as you didn't have that spacer....

Glad you finally got this fixed, ... Mike

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Roger Dat, your reply. Thanks for the input!! I called the mechanic shop that replaced the alternator 2 times and asked them to replace the battery cable and bolts. But they wanted to argu and say it was the battery, then the alternator and the starter, with the slow dragging starts. So I got fed up and had it towed to the Caddy Dealer, took them 3 times to get it right. Car running fine now, no slow starts since Friday. However, after looking the postive and negative cable over on Sat, the bolts and spacer were replaced on friday, but the ground wire running from the battery cable to the lose bolt, is worn, you can see the wires damaged and exposed. It must be replaced ASAP. I cannot see how so many mechanics missed it!!

v/r

JG 93 STS

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