davedog Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Well, I took my car to the shop this morning for some repairs, which I could probably do, but don't have time to. My eldo was loosing coolant somehow, I suspected the water pump (and was correct). It was also leaking ALOT of tranny fluid. Orginally he estimated around $200 for the tranny leak (gasket needs replaced on some panel on the side of the tranny, cost mostly labor) and Around $200 for the water pump. But it turns out to be worse. They didn't relize that they would actually have to drop the tranny out of the car to replace the gasket. So that made the price go up. AND the water pump is more expensive then he thought. AND, my "harminoc balancer" is "falling apart." He said he was surprised that it didn't fly off and damage something else. Now I totaly trust this guy (known him for years), so I know he's not trying to rip me off or anything, but do you guys think I'm getting a decent deal here: parts & labor to fix tranny leak: $330 parts & labor to replace water pump: $284 parts & labor to replace harminoc balancer: $135 Grand Total $749 (this includes tax) He's always "done me right" in the past, so I assume this is reasonable, and everyone I've talked to so far said it was. What do you guys think. Oh and He's going to change the tranny fluid at no extra charge. -dave Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 If you can find out what side panel and how he is going to replace it. If it is the side pan I am curious how he will replace that gasket without dropping the carriage...I need to do that job, what seems difficult it getting the old gasket material off, and you are only backing the pan off about an inch or two. Maybe the gasket comes off clean... and no scraping is necessary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davedog Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 well, he did say he would have to take the transmission out of the car, I'm not sure what you mean by "carriage" (sorry I'm no expert here), did you mean the transmission Mike? I believe he did say it was the side pan, that sound right. Was leaking like crazy. <_> -dave P.S. he said the gasket was made out of a sort of cork, so maybe that comes of clean? In any case the tranny has to come out first. Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 And he only wants $330, thats terrific..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dave, Do not overreact... No matter how much you trust the man. Add the both liquids and watch how much you loose in say 1000 miles. It may be as easy as waterpump gasket (I have got a leak under high RPM). Did you try the test I recommended? If it is not much leave it alone. You can add a pint of coolant once in a while untill it gets worse (if it ever gets worse). Same thing with tranny. What if he is not right and it boils down to pan gasket? Harmonic balancer... how exactly it is falling apart? Maybe just a set scrue to tighten and prevent it from flying? The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Wait a minute, you have the 4.9, what am I thinking about.....I fell into that trap again. I have to think about what side pan he is talking about that he needs to remove the tranny... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Wait a minute, you have the 4.9, what am I thinking about.....I fell into that trap again. I have to thing about what side pan he is talking about that he needs to remove the tranny... There is a huge side cover and a gasket in the vertical plane... I would first make sure the leak is located on that gasket and not somewhere else. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Wait a minute, you have the 4.9, what am I thinking about.....I fell into that trap again. I have to thing about what side pan he is talking about that he needs to remove the tranny... There is a huge side cover and a gasket in the vertical plane... I would first make sure the leak is located on that gasket and not somewhere else. Odd, now I remember it. Mine never leaked so I didnt pay much attention to it. The side pan on my 96 is leaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Wait a minute, you have the 4.9, what am I thinking about.....I fell into that trap again. I have to thing about what side pan he is talking about that he needs to remove the tranny... There is a huge side cover and a gasket in the vertical plane... I would first make sure the leak is located on that gasket and not somewhere else. Odd, now I remember it. Mine never leaked so I didnt pay much attention to it. The side pan on my 96 is leaking. Yep, odd... Did not leak, nobody touched it and now it leaks There are leaks you can live with. My 4.9 leaks all over while in move... but I still love the motor! The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Wait a minute, you have the 4.9, what am I thinking about.....I fell into that trap again. I have to thing about what side pan he is talking about that he needs to remove the tranny... There is a huge side cover and a gasket in the vertical plane... I would first make sure the leak is located on that gasket and not somewhere else. Odd, now I remember it. Mine never leaked so I didnt pay much attention to it. The side pan on my 96 is leaking. Yep, odd... Did not leak, nobody touched it and now it leaks There are leaks you can live with. My 4.9 leaks all over while in move... but I still love the motor! I meant my side pan on my 91 did not leak, that tranny and engine never leaked anything... The side pan on my 96 does leak and I need to keep an eye on my fluid level...since I changed to high mileage Dextron III however it leaks less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davedog Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 he used to work for cadillac (for like 12 years or something), he said the leak was for sure coming from that side pan, so... the he did a pressure test and said it was for sure the waterpump....bearings are out. He said the harmonic balancer was so bad that he didn't know how it was satying on there. Something about some rubber part....Maybe I'm wrong. He said this may have been what hurt the water pump too.... The tranny and coolant were leaking out fast I was putting coolant in almost every day this week. So it's not something I wanna live with. Little drips here and there on a 13 year old car is fine, put huge puddles is not something I like. I really don't think trust is an issue here, i just wanted to see what kind of a deal I was getting, if any. Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Stop adding the coolant... If it was that bad you would loose all of it a month ago. You probably have some leak in the upper part of the system. It will go down to some point and stop. Check out the radiator tanks for cracks when the engine is hot... The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hall Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 $300 for pulling out and installing a tranny is fairly standard. I've done it myself but it is not an easy job. As far as the waterpump, I went against bbobynski's advice and bought a $35 lifetime waterpump from Pep Boys. It is fairly straight forward to install and it took me less than an hour to replace it. I have since bought a new OEM waterpump from a much cheaper source that I now keep in the trunk just in case this one goes out. However, it has been over a year and has not gone out yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dave two things, you can buy a new water pump (not rebuilt) for about $100 from NAPA, is it worth $184 to have him install it? Replacing the water pump is not hard on your car, its a tight operation. With basic tools you could do this. As a point of reference, I replaced a water pump on my 91 4.9 behind a Marriott Courtyard using the maintenance man's tools. If you want a list of tools you will need email me. By the way, my experience with the water pump on the 4.9 is that they do not go out slowly, they self-destruct quickly! Is it leaking from the weep hole?, is that what he sees? Is it it leaking water from there, making noise, is the pulley wobbling? Secondly, what makes him think you need a harmonic balancer? Is it wobbling slighty? The balancer on my 91 wobbled ever so slightly also. Do it look like it is going to separate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 He said the harmonic balancer was so bad that he didn't know how it was satying on there. Something about some rubber part....Maybe I'm wrong. He said this may have been what hurt the water pump too.... Harmonic balancers are typically a steel disk mounted to a hub by the way of a very hard rubber ring, to dampen out vibration and such. It would not be unusual for the rubber to 'dry-rot' over time on a car of this age. I had to replace mine on a SAAB, for the same reason, age and heat. I think the 4.9L water pump is similar to the 4.6L pump cartridge. An OEM cartridge will probably cost you $140, $10 coolant, $10 thermostat housing gasket, I think the OEM thermostat is about $25 (unbelievably). Figure 1.5 labor at $65/hour, I figure $ 317.50. I think he is fair with you are that price, yes, you can always do it cheaper, an aftermarket cartridge for $70 and your time is free (per say). His other prices do not seem unreasonable, but I have not performed that work, as I have only performed the 4.6L pump cartridge replacement. I think I remember an earlier post by J. Adcock, who stated it was the easiest water pump repair he had ever done, and I wholly agree with my experiences. I even 'uncorked' the cartridge ever so carefully with a slotted screwdriver and a ball peen hammer, as I didn't know a cartridge removal tool even existed, but I would HIGHLY recommend using the tool, you would not want to take a chance cracking that aluminum housing it resides in. I can't visualize the relationship between the pump cartridge and the harmonic balancer, the 4.6L cartidge rides on its own bearing supported shaft and its belt pulley is driven by one of the front side overhead cams. Hmmmmm, the 4.9L isn't an overhead cam engine is it...., maybe the cartridge is driven by a belt off of the harmonic balancer, thus excessive vibration was transferred through the pump cartridge by the way of the belt??? I dunno..., it doesn't matter,... it sounds like they are both bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Willie the 4.9 pump is a large pump with about 15 bolts in it, it is not a cartridge pump like the 4.6, it is made out of stamped steel. It is necessary to loosen the pulley bolts THEN remove the serp belt, to make it easier to remove those 3 bolts. There are a couple of bolts that are tough to get at but not impossible with patience. The hardest part is you ask me is scraping off the gasket surface. Here is a diagram of the 4.9 water pump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 I think $330 to R&R transaxle and replace the gasket is a good deal. The price to replace the waterpump job is a little bit salty though. It doesn't suprise me that the harmonic balancer needs replacing after 13 years. You need some special tools to remove and install the balancer on the 4.9 plus a torque wrench to torque the bolt to 250+ ft-lbs or more. If you trust the guy, that is probably one of the most important thing. I need to check the harmonic balancer on my Fleetwood... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 The hardest part is you ask me is scraping off the gasket surface. Mike, Try Permatex gasket remover spray - you spray it on and wait 5-10 mins. and then the old gasket turns to a goo that can be easily removed with a putty knife. You can reapply the spray to stubborn areas. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 The hardest part is you ask me is scraping off the gasket surface. Mike, Try Permatex gasket remover spray - you spray it on and wait 5-10 mins. and then the old gasket turns to a goo that can be easily removed with a putty knife. You can reapply the spray to stubborn areas. Good to know Kevin, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Willie the 4.9 pump is a large pump with about 15 bolts in it, it is not a cartridge pump like the 4.6, it is made out of stamped steel. Yep,...I see, it doesn't look anything like the 4.6L pump cartridge. It does look pretty accessible though, and it looks like you don't have to mess with the thermostat housing, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 I didnt have time to read thru the complete post so ... I had a 93 SLS. The water pump leaked a little bit....at the 2 rear large 10mm bolts that I had to snug up twice a year. Very small leak. Original pump and car was sold at 204K. Be sure to check that... Balancer...yeah...if its falling apart....replace it. Trans leak? Hmmm....if is leaking a little bit 'hell' let it leak. A few drips here or there is not going to keep me up at night. And pull the trans to fix? No way. Trans fluid is cheap. Normal condition in my eyes. Logan Diagnostic LLC www.airbagcrash.com www.ledfix.com www.ledfix.com/yukontaillightrepair.html www.ledfix.com/ledreplacements.html www.ledfix.com/j42385toolrental.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davedog Posted August 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 yeah, I do believe he said the harmonic balancer was "Seperating" now that I think about it. He said that it is the next thing on the serpintine belt from the water pump and they may have helped the water pump die. I have done two water pumps on my previous caddy, so I know how to do it, just too busy right now. On friday night I filled up my radiator and overflow tank to where it should be and by monday morning the overflow tank was bone dry and in the radiator I could see about 6 inches down until I saw coolant. So it's leaking fast. I saw some mosture on the water pump, and he did the pressure test, and said the was for sure where it was leaking out. The tranny was leaving a puddle in my garage over a foot in diameter. Everynight. Not just a few drops (which I can live with). Thanks for the input guys. Im supposed to get in back tomorrow (as long as the balancer comes in). I'll let you know what happens. -dave Crystal Red Tintcoat Exterior | Shale/Brownstone Interior | 32k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 yeah, I do believe he said the harmonic balancer was "Seperating" now that I think about it. He said that it is the next thing on the serpintine belt from the water pump and they may have helped the water pump die. I have done two water pumps on my previous caddy, so I know how to do it, just too busy right now. On friday night I filled up my radiator and overflow tank to where it should be and by monday morning the overflow tank was bone dry and in the radiator I could see about 6 inches down until I saw coolant. So it's leaking fast. I saw some mosture on the water pump, and he did the pressure test, and said the was for sure where it was leaking out. The tranny was leaving a puddle in my garage over a foot in diameter. Everynight. Not just a few drops (which I can live with). Thanks for the input guys. Im supposed to get in back tomorrow (as long as the balancer comes in). I'll let you know what happens. -dave These are serious leaks. Let the guy take care of them ASAP. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob*97 SLS Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Let the guy fix the car. You have trusted and use him before it sounds like. This is way cheaper than another car and I can't see him ripping you off. He wants your business for the long term. You car has such a shine! I'll send mine down to ya! You can detail it for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
67coupedeville Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 The hardest part is you ask me is scraping off the gasket surface. Mike, Try Permatex gasket remover spray - you spray it on and wait 5-10 mins. and then the old gasket turns to a goo that can be easily removed with a putty knife. You can reapply the spray to stubborn areas. I know Loctite makes a really good gasket remover called Chisel Gasket Remover. It's in a silver can and comes out kind of like a foam and bubbles the old gasket off. Spence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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