cobrak69 Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I have a 94 Seville with the 4.6 VIN Y North Star Engine. I had the Time Serts installed last year and I have had a code 41 (No referance signal from Ignition Control Module) ever since. I have replaced the cam sensor which leads me to believe I need a new ICM?!?!? ($250-450) Problem number 2: My car has developed a surging problem upon acceleration. It seems to drag and lung forward upon take of from a red light. Not enough to pin you back in the seat, but very noticable. This car sat up for a year prior to haveing the time serts installed, so I am thinking this could be a dirty fuel filter?!?!? Problem number 3: My car just recently started to die at a stop light from time to time, also while stopped the Check engine light comes on, but goes off as soon as I pull away. It also has a very rough idle at a stop. I pulled a code 119 out of the computer. (Fuel injector open or shorted) But I don't know how to determine which it is or if this can be fixed or will I need to replace something. I know this is a lot, but any advise would be much appreciated. This forum has saved me in the past several times, I look forward to your help again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 For problem #3, a stethescope would work wonders for listening to the injectors to determine which one is not working. You'd be amazed at what you can hear with one. In the absence of one, pull the fuel rail and turn the key on to pressurize the system. You will quickly see any leaky or stuck open injector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 For problem #3, a stethescope would work wonders for listening to the injectors to determine which one is not working. You'd be amazed at what you can hear with one. In the absence of one, pull the fuel rail and turn the key on to pressurize the system. You will quickly see any leaky or stuck open injector. Well the problem there is the fuel rail is actually a gasket assembly in the intake, and if you pick up the fuel rail, it diconects the fuel feed also. I don't think I would be able to listen through the intake cover, but when I attempted to turn the car over with the cover off, I had a small fire!!!!! I tested the injectors with my fluke, and they all test the same. I can't blow through any of them. The inctor leads all tested the same. Could a clogged fuel filter throw up a code 119? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 With regard to the injectors, on the OBD I system there is a test that I think is called the Power Balance test whereby you turn off individual injectors and note the RPM drop.. The injector with the least RPM drop would be a good place to start. Do this test while the idle is rough. Do you have the manual? Confusing the issue is that the code 119 can be an open or shorted circuit. P119 (E119) .......................................... Open or Shorted Fuel Injector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 With regard to the injectors, on the OBD I system there is a test that I think is called the Power Balance test whereby you turn off individual injectors and note the RPM drop.. The injector with the least RPM drop would be a good place to start. Do this test while the idle is rough. Do you have the manual? Confusing the issue is that the code 119 can be an open or shorted circuit. P119 (E119) .......................................... Open or Shorted Fuel Injector I have the MATCO MT2500, will that work? Which manual are you refering too? I have the Chilton book for the car, the owner's manual for the car and the book for my MT2500. I know what the code 119 is, I just don't know if it could be a false code due to poor fuel pressure. I got the code out of the dash display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 With regard to the injectors, on the OBD I system there is a test that I think is called the Power Balance test whereby you turn off individual injectors and note the RPM drop.. The injector with the least RPM drop would be a good place to start. Do this test while the idle is rough. Do you have the manual? Confusing the issue is that the code 119 can be an open or shorted circuit. P119 (E119) .......................................... Open or Shorted Fuel Injector I have the MATCO MT2500, will that work? Which manual are you refering too? I have the Chilton book for the car, the owner's manual for the car and the book for my MT2500. I know what the code 119 is, I just don't know if it could be a false code due to poor fuel pressure. I got the code out of the dash display. Whoe nellie.... What is the Matco 2500 first off a code reader? I am speaking about the SERVICE MANUAL, Chilton is useless..... In the service manual you will find the POWER BALANCE test, that will allow you to SHUT DOWN each injector to be able to ISOLATE which one is giving you the problem.... You MAY also be able to isolate it by pulling each ignition wire, but I don't like doing that, too many sparks jumping on the NS can damage other stuff... On the distributor cars you could do that easily.. I DO NOT think your problem is a fuel filter, you are getting a CODE that an injector is OPEN or SHORTED..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 For problem #3, a stethescope would work wonders for listening to the injectors to determine which one is not working. You'd be amazed at what you can hear with one. In the absence of one, pull the fuel rail and turn the key on to pressurize the system. You will quickly see any leaky or stuck open injector. Well the problem there is the fuel rail is actually a gasket assembly in the intake, and if you pick up the fuel rail, it diconects the fuel feed also. I don't think I would be able to listen through the intake cover, but when I attempted to turn the car over with the cover off, I had a small fire!!!!! I tested the injectors with my fluke, and they all test the same. I can't blow through any of them. The inctor leads all tested the same. Could a clogged fuel filter throw up a code 119? You should NEVER attempt to run a '93/'94 with the cover off. It will run away unthrottled aka WOT and the RPM will bounce off the rev limiter. DON'T DO THAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 OK new problem! I changed the fuel filter, put the intake cover back together to try a new approach, and started the car. It ran very rough for 2 seconds made a little pop and stalled. Now I can't get the car to start. The only presant code is the code 41 (Cam sensor) which I have had all along and never prevented the car from running. After the small fire, I made sure nothing was burnt, so that isn't it, all the wires looked good. Is there anything special you have to do to pressurize the lines after changing the fuel filter? I don't know what is going on, but the car at least ran before I started on all of this. PLEASE HELP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 It sounds like you dont have all of the injectors seated fully or one is not seated at all. That might explain the rough idle and the fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 Have you checked the FPR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 It sounds like you dont have all of the injectors seated fully or one is not seated at all. That might explain the rough idle and the fire I misunderstood your post, you checked the wires from the fire, its not that you had a second fire.... Is it possible to not seat the injector rail properly? It sounds like your setup is more difficult to see as it is part of the cover.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 OK new problem! I changed the fuel filter, put the intake cover back together to try a new approach, and started the car. It ran very rough for 2 seconds made a little pop and stalled. Now I can't get the car to start. The only presant code is the code 41 (Cam sensor) which I have had all along and never prevented the car from running. After the small fire, I made sure nothing was burnt, so that isn't it, all the wires looked good. Is there anything special you have to do to pressurize the lines after changing the fuel filter? I don't know what is going on, but the car at least ran before I started on all of this. PLEASE HELP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, there is nothing special you have to do. The system will pressurize as soon as you turn the key on. I'd look into that cam sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 I am not sure how, why or when, but I found out why it isn't starting. There was a pool of gas along the whole bottom of the intake valley. I got most of it out, now I am waiting for the remainder to evaporate. I pulled all of my plugs and most were soaked. I must have got half a gallon out of the intake. I wonder if that happened when the fire started, and maybe I didn't notice when I bolted everything up. It is hard to see under the tubes. I guess I will know more in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 You are lucky. I don't know your year well enough to know what happened but I would take a good look at the feed, FPR, and fuel rail for cracks, etc or maybe it was not seated right. Maybe someone here can scan the fuel rail page for you for the 94 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 You are lucky. I don't know your year well enough to know what happened but I would take a good look at the feed, FPR, and fuel rail for cracks, etc or maybe it was not seated right. Maybe someone here can scan the fuel rail page for you for the 94 I hate to sound ignorant, but what is the FPR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 You are lucky. I don't know your year well enough to know what happened but I would take a good look at the feed, FPR, and fuel rail for cracks, etc or maybe it was not seated right. Maybe someone here can scan the fuel rail page for you for the 94 I hate to sound ignorant, but what is the FPR? FPR = fuel pressure regulator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 That is a LOT of fuel sitting in the intake. Something is wrong. Remove the intake cover and turn the key on but DO NOT start the engine. Turning the key on will pressurize the fuel system and you should be able to spot a leak. The FPR is the small canister looking device that is on one of the rails with a nipple on the top. If it leaks from the nipple, it needs to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franey Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 I am not sure but is your intake manifold , made out of plastic like the later ones. if it is check for it being cracked , that pop may have been the engine backfiring and this has been known to crack an intake manifold. After you check this, you said the car had been sitting up for over a year. IF you did not drain all of the gas out of the tank, your gas is old and probably has a lot of water in it from condensation. If your gas is this old your car is lucky to start at all much less run, if it does start then the running part will be with a lot of missing and alll kinds of weird problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Well I found the problem with the fuel leak, the main feed going to the rails was not seating down all of the way even when the cover was torqued down. So that solves that problem. I am waiting for the remainder of gas to evaporate again though, as it leaked again while I was troubleshooting. The car did sit up for a year, but after I had it fixed I have been driving it for about 8 months. I even took a couple of 1500 mile trips in it. I never did do anything with the fuel filter or system though, which maybe why I am getting some of the hesitation and spudering. I replaced the filter yesterday, and it is hard to blow through, so I am guessing that was a contributing factor. The cam sensor was replaced at the time of initial repair, but the code still shows up anyway. I don't know why, it has a new sensor and new wires going to the sensor, so I don't know what the problem is there. The connections are good. I hope the ICM is not on it's way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok, this morning I put everything back together with new plugs and all. I go to fire it up and it starts for a split second and shuts off. I go to start it again and it just spins, it spins really easy. My cam and crank are turning but I do not have any cylinder pressure. I tested #2,4,6,8&7 and all but one had only 30psi I think #8 had 60psi. Now when my intake filled with gas it did go up as high as the top of the plastic horns, but could that have caused this? It never locked up, so hydrolock is out of the question right? Even if the gas got sucked through the intake it couldn't have caused all of the rods or valves to bend at once, I dont' think the starter is that strong. Any ideas, or this this thing scrap metal now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Hmm... You said your plugs were soaked with gas. Did you pull the dipstick and see if you have gas in the crankcase? Maybe you have diluted the oil so badly that the lifters are collapsed? I would change the oil, put a squirt of oil in each cylinder, crank it without starting for a bit and then try to start it again. Other than that, I am exhausted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Are you sure the cam is turning? Are you sure you did not hydrolock it? If there is only 30 psi, then something has to be open to allow compression to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Are you sure the cam is turning? Are you sure you did not hydrolock it? If there is only 30 psi, then something has to be open to allow compression to escape. I marked the cam and the crank, they are both turning. Hydrolock would have seized the motor right? Now I did notice there is a puddle of oil under my oil filter, so I guess blow by is a possablity like Scotty said from the gas. I think I will attempt the oil change and a squirt in all of the cylinders. It can't hurt, if it is more intence than that I will part this thing out and move on. $2500 in repairs inside 12 months is enough for me. If I wanted to make payments I would buy a new one. I don't own a lift because I normally work on Mustangs, so dropping the engine will not be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobrak69 Posted August 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Are you sure the cam is turning? Are you sure you did not hydrolock it? If there is only 30 psi, then something has to be open to allow compression to escape. BTW: This is has a dual over head cam on each head and these run on a chain, not a belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 12, 2005 Report Share Posted August 12, 2005 Are you sure the cam is turning? Are you sure you did not hydrolock it? If there is only 30 psi, then something has to be open to allow compression to escape. BTW: This is has a dual over head cam on each head and these run on a chain, not a belt. Yes, I know that is the reason I didnt think it was like in the old days where a timing gear would loose its teeth and the pistons and valves would hit, that is not possible in this engine with the chain. I think you must have dumped a lot of gas and it leaked by the rings and into the crankcase. I don't think there is any room for the pistons and valves to be out of time, you would bend every valve and have no compression. What concerns me is..... having had a couple of timing chains go on Cadillacs, Olds and Pontiacs, your symptom of the engine spinning certainly sounds like the old fashioned timing chain problem, lets keep our fingers crossed that something didn't happen to the main chain, that would be a rare occurance.. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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