4.5l Missing

[cdndeville]

The 4.5L started missing a couple of days ago. Pretty bad actually, its running on 7 cylinders. It is more pronounced obviously under load and at idle. IDLE rpm ranges anywhere from 530-680 rpm. You can hear the sputter from the exhaust as well. Under moderate acceleration on a 1st - 2nd and maybe 3rd shift you can feel the missing as well.

I did a cylinder balance test (ECM Override E.5.4) and with the already rough idle all cylinders except #1 make a significant difference in the idle. I do not have a tachometer to note the 100 rpm drop but there is definitely a drop with cutting out fuel to #2-#8. #1 makes no difference at all in rpm. Is this a clear indication that #1 injector is gone??

Stupid question but not sure: Looking from the front of the engine(RH of car) is #1 cylinder on the right bank towards front of the engine? I know its 1-3-5-7 right bank 2-4-6-8 LH bank. I guess if its front RH then the PWR steering pump needs to come out to get to the fuel rail.

I have not had a chance to go out and get a guage to measure fuel pressure yet. Also I realize it could be spark, I havent had a chance to pull the plugs yet either. Is there anything else I should check for? Could a bad EGR valve cause missing? Also the drive belt is fraying from 1 edge and needs replacement. (this weekend is gonna be busy need to change front pads as well)

Anything other suggestions? I always value input from this great group of people.

Thanks

History:

Plugs/Plus Wires (DELCO) replaced about 25,000 km ago.

Fuel Filter, EGR valve replaced, pipes cleaned, throttle body cleaned about 10,000 km ago

[adallak]

#1 cylinder is the closest one to the radiator cap. My guess would a bad plugwire to that cylinder or a bad plug if you did not replace them recently.

[navion]

#1 cylinder is the closest one to the radiator cap. My guess would a bad plug wire to that cylinder or a bad plug if you did not replace them recently.

To check to see if the # 1 plug is bad, you could switch it with the one next to it & see if the problem follows the plug. Ditto with the ignition leads. (Change the end on the distributor also!!

Do this one at a time. If the problem moves with either the plug or the wire, then you have found the culprit!

Take a close look at the plug when you pull it. If it has a solid dull black appearance, it is probably cold fouled and it will be shorted out. Ditto if it is wet with gasoline. In that case, replace the plug & probably the ignition lead as well.

I know that you don't have much usage on the plugs and wires, but I have seen even brand new plugs fail immediately.

Let us know what you find.

Britt

[Ranger]

If you suspect an injector, get a stethescope and put the end on a working injector. You'll hear it "ticking". Listen for the same thing on #1. If it's silent, then you know it's either the injector, the wiring or the PCM (more likely the injector). In the absence of a stethescope you might get by with a lenght of hose or 1/2" copper pipe.

[cdndeville]

Thanks all for the useful advice. I will take a look at the issue when I get back from work tomorrow evening and will post my findings. I was too busy at work today to spare anytime in the evening. For now I just keep driving the V7 gently.

[cdndeville]

Well this morning I went to start the car (cold start). There was a lot of squealing and ofcourse a lot of smoke. Rubber doesnt burn too well. Anyway took the serpentine drive belt off and checked all the accessories. The A.I.R pump has seized everything else including A/C clutch is ok.

1). Could an almost seizing accessory cause missing or missing like symptons? I did start the car with the drive belt of and it seemed noticeably smoother. Hoping its not 2 problems but I think it may be.

2). Is it possible to by-pass the AIR pump with a shorter belt? Has anyone done it. Does not having the AIR system functional cause driveability problems? I know the SES light and code E49 will exist?

The reason for #2 is because I called the dealer and they are asking for $626.76+taxes for a new pump.

I think my 2 options are:

a). Find a AIR pump for a 4.5L from a wrecker. (Does a 4.9L have the same pump? )

. Try and fix the pump, punch out the bearing and press in a new one.

[Scotty]

The 4.9 does not have an air pump. I think the 4.9 began in 91. Check www.car-parts.com I would check everything related to #1 cylinder, ignition wire, compression, plug for cracks and gap, contacts in the cap, carbon tracks in the distributor, cracks in the distributor, and check the injector resistance and wiring.

[Ranger]

I am sure the A.I.R. pump can be bypassed and will not cause drivability problems as long as you do not have to pass emissions tests.

[cdndeville]

So I got the AIR PUMP out of the car and the shaft bearing is seized for sure. Had to remove both

radiator fans, the radiator top mounting bracket, bend the A/C pipes, push the trans. cooler lines around and then it came out.

Now I cannot find a non dealer AIR PUMP up here in Canada. No one seems to have a reman pump or aftermarket one. Yes carparts.com does have a reman from A1 CARDONE. I was hoping to find one here in Canada though

I am thinking of putting a smaller belt in to bypass the AIR pump. At least this way I can use the car, I have been without a car for 3 days now. I measured 72" with a thin metal wire around all the remaining accessories. OEM is 87.5", DAYCO part # 5060875 (last 3 digits is the length). Does this huge difference seem right? AIR pump on centre right.

http://www.mvreader.com/multiview/dayco/gr.../rtdiag/bm7.jpg

For the pump I will try and get the same bearing and have a local machine shop press the old one out and press in the new one. I had a exact size socket the outer sleave of that bearing and hammered it like hell but the darn thing refuses to move.

Will let you know how it turns out. Have to resolve this before I can even get to the missing issue.

[Ranger]

If the bearing siezed, it may have spun the race and welded it to the shaft. Had that happen once to a boat trailer on the road. Tried everthing short of dynomite. Not only was it welded on but it hardened as well. A hack saw would not even scratch it.

[cdndeville]

Okay here is the update so far:

AIR PUMP is on back order from CARDONE, still hasnt arrived been 2 weeks now. Meanwhile since I needed the car I got a smaller 73" belt [DAYCO 5060730] to bypass the AIR pump. Well ofcourse the car still misses as expected and ECM override E.5.4 still indicates that it is cyl #1.

Since DELCO plugs are cheap, I changed all the plugs and checked the plug wires (which were changed about 20K km ago) for resistance and they all turned out okay. I even checked for spark at the #1 cylinder as well with the old screwdriver in plug wire against metal trick. SPARK seems good.

Today I checked resistance of all the fuel injectors at the left and right bank, 8 and 10-pin connectors.

#1: 1.3 ohms

#3: 12.4 ohms

#5: 9.1 ohms

#7: 17.3 ohms

#2: 7.7 ohms

#4: 15.4 ohms

#6: 6.7 ohms

#8: 10.3 ohms

This is where I need help now.

Does the information above strongly point to a defective #1 INJ? I also verified with a noid light (test light), engine running that the ECM is firing the #1 cylinder injector. The light was dim but you can see it light up and more so with increase in RPM.

1). What is the nominal resistance of fuel injectors for a 4.5L 273 cu VIN(3) engine? I would like to know so I can replace only the ones that are on their way out.

2). As you all know injectors are costly to replace. Called the DEALER and a local DELCO supplier, they are asking for $351.05 per injector. From what I have read online it seems I should steer clear of rebuilt injectors. What is the general opinion on rebuilt injectors? With new one is there a specific brand to go with? I remembering someone posting here that BOSCH couldnt properly match the flow rate and it was better to go with OEM.

3). Do you suspect any other cause for missing.

I checked out www.rockauto.com

ACDELCO Part# 217260 US $95.79 or

STD. MOTOR Part# FJ41 US $94.79

Are these REMAN injectors? Why is there such a huge price difference. Has anyone in Canada ordered from them in the past. What is the turnaround time and were there any problems with Canada Customs?

Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated.

[Scotty]

I just searched car-parts.com and you can buy injectors cheaply, $25 there was a whole set for $100... I would do something like that, even if you go to your local srap yard and pick up one, to swap in, bring your ohm meter. #1 certainly looks like a problem, what do you think about #7?

[cdndeville]

Thanks Scotty

But I did a search on car-part.com for Fuel Distributor (& Misc. Injection) for Canada and not a whole lot comes up. Local wreckers here just dont seem to have Caddies...yeah i dont know where they go, after 15 yrs one would expect several. Not alot of them even had the AIR pump and the 2 or 3 that did were asking for twice the $$ for reman. pump.

Whats your opinion on new injectors? If it isnt necesary I dont want to sink CDN $1200 into a 15 yr old car so buying 2 new ones would be a more suitable option.

I am not to sure what the resistance of new injectors for this application should be, but maybe around 12 ohms from what I have read online. From the results mine are all over the range. Do you suspect that INJ#7 has open coils and should be changed?

I am confused as to where to order the parts now.

[Scotty]

Thanks Scotty

But I did a search on car-part.com for Fuel Distributor (& Misc. Injection) for Canada and not a whole lot comes up. Local wreckers here just dont seem to have Caddies...yeah i dont know where they go, after 15 yrs one would expect several. Not alot of them even had the AIR pump and the 2 or 3 that did were asking for twice the $$ for reman. pump.

Whats your opinion on new injectors? If it isnt necesary I dont want to sink CDN $1200 into a 15 yr old car so buying 2 new ones would be a more suitable option.

I am not to sure what the resistance of new injectors for this application should be, but maybe around 12 ohms from what I have read online. From the results mine are all over the range. Do you suspect that INJ#7 has open coils and should be changed?

I am confused as to where to order the parts now. 

I would replace any that look too far off of 12 ohms. Check this place for reconditioning injectors, I was temped at one time. Give them a call maybe they will be able to help out with your resistence readings. New injectors are not necessary if you ask me

http://www.lindertech.com/reconinj.htm

Read this

http://www.lindertech.com/injinfo1.pdf

Won't US based companies ship to Canada?

Check this out from the PDF file

[Scotty]

How about this...

[Scotty]

Explain to me what a noid is, I have never come across it before, you mentioned it in an earier post and her it is again in that PDF file

[PAUL T]

Isn't a "noid" that little man that sold pizza's for Dominos maybe.

[JimD]

A noid light is a simple inexpensive tool to visually check that voltage pulses are being delivered to the component being tested. The noid must be matched to the system being tested to avoid overloading the component that is producing the pulses.

Another method of visually checking for the presence or absence of pulses would be an o'scope. Read $$$$. The advantage of a scope is there is virtually no load on the component being tested.

[CaddyChris]

Isn't a "noid" that little man that sold pizza's for Dominos maybe.    

haha, I used to play YO-NOID on Nintendo all the time. That game was the best...I could never beat it tho...almost...anybody else play it? It was pretty cool with the pizza eating contest...haha.

doesn't he clarify what a noid is in his previous post?

"I also verified with a noid light (test light)"

albeit I never heard of it before either...

Chris

[CaddyChris]

A noid light is a simple inexpensive tool to visually check that voltage pulses are being delivered to the component being tested. The noid must be matched to the system being tested to avoid overloading the component that is producing the pulses.

Another method of visually checking for the presence or absence of pulses would be an o'scope. Read $$$$. The advantage of a scope is there is virtually no load on the component being tested.

this is much more clear...thanks

[cdndeville]

I dont have the same one but here is a decription of a similar one.

http://www.toolsource.com/ost/product.asp?...E3P19H2NPPQ3GUC

I think mine is damaged perhaps because it isnt as bright as its meant to be but then again I had direct sunlight hitting it at the time. I picked 1 up from a local tool store for under $10 a long time ago.

I think a normal test light doesnt work here because the millisecond pulses are not long enough to heat the higher resistance filament.

Okay coming back to the more important issue, so you all think that going with reconditioned injectors is the better choice. Is that correct? I have found some Autoline reman. injectors at a local parts store.

Thanks for the suggestions,

--Ben

[CaddyChris]

I would make that decision specifically because of the price...thats what I would do.

[cdndeville]

Hey all, slightly off topic but is the database at the older caddyinfo hosting server finally offline? I tried to access the links in the thread below and couldnt.

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1867&hl=

I do remember Guru saying something about aftermarket/reman injectors in this or a similar post. BTW where is that GURU?

02/15/03: OEM Fuel Injectors:

http://caddysearch.netgetgoing.com/mbarchi...d=caddymb-11719

I hear what you are saying about the $$. I can basically get 2 reconditioned for the price of 1 new one. The autoline was about CDN $55 each. But I need a bit of reliability only because I cannot work on this car through out cold can-eh-dian winters. This car has not been into a shop in the 8 years I have owned it since all the work is done by me but I hate working in the cold.

Oh yeah the AIR pump is on the way, should have it this afternoon. Atleast something gets fixed this evening.

Anyway I will wait for a few more opinions and order the parts this evening.

-- Ben

[Scotty]

Isn't a "noid" that little man that sold pizza's for Dominos maybe.

Bahaaa, that is exactly what I was thinking! I have one of those guys!

[Scotty]

Here is interesting information ACCEL injectors 14.4 ohm?

Go to Summit Racing and look over their injectors

This is all about flow rate if you ask me, matching flow rates. I undertand the need and want to go OEM at this point but at what cost, did you say $350 per injector? Thats crazy. If I were you, I would buy ONE to test that your theory is correct on #1, or if you are sure, I would consider pulling all of them and sending them in to be reconditioned, matched for resistence and flow rate and get away from it, replacing one or two may leave you with a rough idle, I am sure it will be better than it WAS but still not right. Have you tried to call that place I suggested to see what it would cost for them to recondition all 8?