More 2000 Sts Repair Woes Help

[nascaddy]

Well the warranty co sent the inspector back to look at the heads on my car. My Husband and Service rep were present. He measured for warpage (The heads had not been cleaned and still had gasket material on them) His measurement was 0.03. He still stated that warpage was caused by overheating. The mechanic said that one of the bolts was stripped. I still say that the overheating was caused by the blown head gasket. I need toknow if anyone knows how I can get some written information that supports my position that the blown head gasket could have been caused by something other than overheating. The warranty co. says I have not provided them with any substantial information that supports that I did not let the car overheat to the point of causing engine damage. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate. I am facing a huge repair bill and I really need to get my car fixed. Please can somebody help me. Thanks Nadeen

[Bob D]

Nadeen, with aluminum cylinder heads mated to an aluminum block there are little if any differences in the coefficients of expansion. The heads ARE NOT warped, especially with only three thousands of an inch difference over the entire plane? And unclean surfaces to boot?? You are being played.

Further, the Northstar system has a computer program on board every vehicle that will shut down the engine to a "Camel mode", where it can go at least 50 miles, with NO coolant, and not damage the engine. Again, what they're telling you is absolute nonsense.

There is a history of Northstar headgasket failure here, I suggest you seach the archives under "headgasket".

Good luck,and stick to your guns.

** Also, look up "timeserts" in the archives. It's a subject that is directly related to Northstar head gasket replacement, and is an imperative step when you have yours replaced.

[Scotty]

The answer is in your post, the mechanic said that one of the bolts was stripped. We refer to that as the threads were pulled. THAT caused the head gasket to leak THEN the car overheated.....

YOUR problem was NOT caused by you overheating the engine...

We did a survey of NS engines to see how many had head gasket problems. Approximately 14% have had head gasket problems out of 137 surveyed...

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...&hl=head+gasket

[Scotty]

One more thing, these are the reasons for head gasket problems;

1) improper maintenance, including ignoring coolant change intervals

1a) mixing GREEN coolant with Dexcool increases the change intervals necessary, green is a 2 year (24,000 mile) interval and dexcool is a 5 year (50,000 mile) interval, if ANY green is used the interval is 2 years/24,000 miles,

2) improper repairs, once the head is remove the engine MUST be time-serted, not time-serting the engine will lead to pulled or stripped thread in the future.

Meaning that if your engine was worked on before you purchased the car, and NOT time-serted, that is the reason the bolt pulled... Mike

[Scotty]

Well the warranty co sent the inspector back to look at the heads on my car. My Husband and Service rep were present. He measured for warpage (The heads had not been cleaned and still had gasket material on them) His measurement was 0.03. He still stated that warpage was caused by overheating. The mechanic said that one of the bolts was stripped. I still say that the overheating was caused by the blown head gasket. I need toknow if anyone knows how I can get some written information that supports my position that the blown head gasket could have been caused by something other than overheating. The warranty co. says I have not provided them with any substantial information that supports that I did not let the car overheat to the point of causing engine damage. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate. I am facing a huge repair bill and I really need to get my car fixed. Please can somebody help me. Thanks Nadeen

He is full of bull with the warpage issue. First of all, you are correct ALL gasket material must come off the head. That mechanic needs to have an independent shop measure the warpage accurately.

jhall, did you discuss this warpage issue with our expert, I recall you discussing this issue and recall that it was ok for you to torque it down... Am I correct?

[jhall]

Hi Scotty,

Nascaddy needs to keep pushing on the warranty company - as in being a real pain to them. The adjuster does not appear to know what he's doing and is likely not certified to make any calls about causes of damage on the N* power train.

When measuring the heads, you must have a straight edge - not some piece of metal like a carpenter's square - a true machinist's straight edge must be used. The heads must be ABSOLUTELY CLEAN or you will get reading errors that can easily exceed the warpage limit for the heads alone.

The measured limit on a set of CLEAN heads - no head gaskets, carbon or oil - is 0.002 inches. If above 0.002, and not more than 0.008, the heads can be resurfaced. Beyond that, the heads need to be replaced.

Here's the proper procedure:

The straight edge is placed diagaonally across the head gasket side (e.g. upper left to lower right). A feeler gauge with a 0.002 thickness is probed under the straight edge where the straight edge crosses the center of the head. Then probe to the left and right sides of the previous location on the head along where the straight edge travels. The process is repeated with the straight edge positioned in the opposite diagonal position (e.g. lower left to upper right).

Nascaddy, it sounds like you're going to have to fight for your due. Keep at them and let us know what happens.

Good Luck!

[KevinW]

We did a survey of NS engines to see how many had head gasket problems.  Approximately 14% have had head gasket problems out of 137 surveyed...

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...&hl=head+gasket

In my view, that poll suggests that, of the registered users of this site who either recognised the term "Timesert" or were curious to know more, and wished to participate in a voluntary poll, almost 14% answered 'Yes' to the question, "Has your Northstar been Timeserted?" A formal survey would have more control over the sampling. Also, there isn't any distinction as to the reason an engine was Timeserted; the disassembly might have been related to a piston or ring replacement due to carbon build-up.

[jhall]

Nascaddy,

Here's some info on the Northstar engine "camel mode". May be helpful to you

http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadillac-tech.html#camel

[Scotty]

Hi Scotty,

Nascaddy needs to keep pushing on the warranty company - as in being a real pain to them. The adjuster does not appear to know what he's doing and is likely not certified to make any calls about causes of damage on the N* power train.

When measuring the heads, you must have a straight edge - not some piece of metal like a carpenter's square - a true machinist's straight edge must be used. The heads must be ABSOLUTELY CLEAN or you will get reading errors that can easily exceed the warpage limit for the heads alone.

The measured limit on a set of CLEAN heads - no head gaskets, carbon or oil - is 0.002 inches. If above 0.002, and not more than 0.008, the heads can be resurfaced. Beyond that, the heads need to be replaced.

Here's the proper procedure:

The straight edge is placed diagaonally across the head gasket side (e.g. upper left to lower right). A feeler gauge with a 0.002 thickness is probed under the straight edge where the straight edge crosses the center of the head. Then probe to the left and right sides of the previous location on the head along where the straight edge travels. The process is repeated with the straight edge positioned in the opposite diagonal position (e.g. lower left to upper right).

Nascaddy, it sounds like you're going to have to fight for your due. Keep at them and let us know what happens.

Good Luck!

Thanks jhall, that is exactly what I was looking for, Mike

[Scotty]

We did a survey of NS engines to see how many had head gasket problems.  Approximately 14% have had head gasket problems out of 137 surveyed...

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...&hl=head+gasket

In my view, that poll suggests that, of the registered users of this site who either recognised the term "Timesert" or were curious to know more, and wished to participate in a voluntary poll, almost 14% answered 'Yes' to the question, "Has your Northstar been Timeserted?" A formal survey would have more control over the sampling. Also, there isn't any distinction as to the reason an engine was Timeserted; the disassembly might have been related to a piston or ring replacement due to carbon build-up.

Very True Kevin this is definately a worst case scenario

[CadiKing]

Nadeen, with  aluminum cylinder heads mated to an aluminum block there are little if any differences in the coefficients of expansion. The heads ARE NOT warped, especially with only three thousands of an inch difference over the entire plane? And unclean surfaces to boot?? You are being played.

I agree that the heads are not warped!

The mechanic, and I use the term loooosely,

must be half-a**ed if he is measuring a warped head at

0.03 = 0.030. That is 30 thousandths, not 3 thousandths!

One pulled head bolt will not allow a head to move, warp,

0.030! Ask him how that enormous head could warp 0.030!

You need to start dealing with someone that knows what he

is doing. Any so called mechanic that tells you 0.030, is not

too experienced or knowledgeable. I have neve heard of a

head warping that much! Usually heads are milled less than

0.010. Gasket material is much thicker that 0.003. I would

think the mechanic would understand the importance of

checking for flatness with an absolutely CLEAN HEAD GASKET SURFACE!

(But, if you allow them, they will take advantage of you.)

Explain to them that 0.003 is the thickness of a human hair.

The 0.030 reading is probably the thickness of gasket material

that was left on the head at the time of measurement!

Get a Caddy expert in there if you have to.

Remember, THEY ARE WRONG! Keep digging for written information

relating to this, as you can beat them at there own game.

Ask them questions you know the ansewers to, and lead them down

the path that says the pulled bolt is the cause.

Example: If the cause of the overheating is NOT the pulled bolt,

then what have they determined caused the blown head gasket?

Are they suggesting you allowed it to overheat, even though

the Cadillac is made to not have a problem and allow you to drive

50 miles across the flaming desert without incident? Nice try, but

where is their proof! Ask them for written explanation from an

expert. If it their contention the over heating pulled the headbolt and

warped the heat, or vice versa, then tell them to show you an example

in writing. I don't think you will find any head warped 0.030!

good luck and don't give up....

[Bill K]

One more thing, these are the reasons for head gasket problems;

1) improper maintenance, including ignoring coolant change intervals

1a) mixing GREEN coolant with Dexcool increases the change intervals necessary, green is a 2 year (24,000 mile) interval and dexcool is a 5 year (50,000 mile) interval, if ANY green is used the interval is 2 years/24,000 miles,

2) improper repairs, once the head is remove the engine MUST be time-serted, not time-serting the engine will lead to pulled or stripped thread in the future.

Meaning that if your engine was worked on before you purchased the car, and NOT time-serted, that is the reason the bolt pulled... Mike

Scotty, none of those reasons apply to me and it still blew.

Seems that sometimes high performance engines have high $ problems.

[keith_99_sts]

My brother-in-laws '98 Deville has a leaking head gasket. The car has no warranty so he has to smile and take it like a man. He knows a good Caddy mechanic and is getting the timecerts and gasket fix for $2K.

These engines are so expensive to fix, he considered just getting rid of the car. It's really a shame that the Northstar has this problem. Couldn't they have designed the engine to withstand head bolt removal? That doesn't seem like too much to ask for on a $50K car. Head gasket problems are quite common on this engine, and the Caddy mechanic doesn't have to worry about finding new customers.

Good luck with your head gasket fix. If you can get the warranty to pay for timecerts, you'll have a solid engine that is cheaper to fix if you need to take off the heads in the future. If my '99 STS ever has this problem, I'll be out $2K.

[KHE]

My brother-in-laws '98 Deville has a leaking head gasket. The car has no warranty so he has to smile and take it like a man. He knows a good Caddy mechanic and is getting the timecerts and gasket fix for $2K.

These engines are so expensive to fix, he considered just getting rid of the car. It's really a shame that the Northstar has this problem. Couldn't they have designed the engine to withstand head bolt removal? That doesn't seem like too much to ask for on a $50K car. Head gasket problems are quite common on this engine, and the Caddy mechanic doesn't have to worry about finding new customers.

Good luck with your head gasket fix. If you can get the warranty to pay for timecerts, you'll have a solid engine that is cheaper to fix if you need to take off the heads in the future. If my '99 STS ever has this problem, I'll be out $2K.

I wouldn't agree that head gasket failures are common with the Northstar. It's just the nature of internet forums that would lead to that conclusion. People rarely seek out an internet forum such as this one to brag on how reliable there car is.

I would love to find a DeVille that had bad head gaskets that I could buy cheaply...I'd timesert the engine myself and have a nice car to replace my aging Buick Park Avenue....

[Scotty]

I would love to find a DeVille that had bad head gaskets that I could buy cheaply...

This is a good idea! Thanks! I want an STS that needs work...

[Bob D]

>People rarely seek out an internet forum such as this one to brag on how reliable there car is.<

I've had three STS's..NO problems,no complaints in a total of over 200,000 miles.

They're fun, they're fast, they're comfy, they turn heads, they're babe magnets..

C'mon, I'm not THAT rare...

[Scotty]

They're babe magnets? I am getting rid of my DEVILLE now!

The Deville is a BABY magnet since I have had three car seats in it at once!

Knock on wood, my 96 has 75,000 miles, gets bi-weekly WOT's (not long ones only about 4500 RPM, im a wimp)... It runs like a charm, I love it. I use about a quart every 1500 miles now, which I think is an improvement from when I first got the car.

Last weekend I drove up to the Catskills Mountains in 92 degree heat a 425 mile round trip, the mountain inclines were incredible five miles up at times.. The car was loaded heavily with suitcases and my wife and daughter and I got 19.5, with an average MPH for the entire trip which included bumper to bumper for miles on the way up of 34, I used 1/8 quart of oil, she stayed in the 215 to 222 range the entire trip and I dropped out of OD on inclines and pushed her to 65, the engine just pulled and pulled (labored hard at times but pulled)... Amazing

[KHE]

>People rarely seek out an internet forum such as this one to brag on how reliable there car is.<

I've had three STS's..NO problems,no complaints in a total of over 200,000 miles.

They're fun, they're fast, they're comfy, they turn heads, they're babe magnets..

C'mon, I'm not THAT rare...

You know what I was trying to say...

My Northstar has been bulletproof as well.

[Bob D]

They're babe magnets?  I am getting rid of my DEVILLE now!   

The Deville is a BABY magnet since I have had three car seats in it at once!

Honestly over the years, I've had a few very attractive total strangers (women! ) stop, stare, smile and say: 'That is one SEXY car..."

...( and that was in the good part of town..)

[Regis]

The answer is in your post, the mechanic said that one of the bolts was stripped.  We refer to that as the threads were pulled.  THAT caused the head gasket to leak THEN the car overheated.....

YOUR problem was NOT caused by you overheating the engine... 

We did a survey of NS engines to see how many had head gasket problems.  Approximately 14% have had head gasket problems out of 137 surveyed...

http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...&hl=head+gasket

But Mike let's face it most people (like you said before) only venture onto these discussion boards to find a fix to a problem or complain. Most people don't look for this sight because everything is fine.

Prior to 2 years ago I can't recall there being so much discussion about "head gasket failures" or "time certs". Could it be that the head gasket gods all got together one day and said "This is the year that we make them all fail..... no matter what the year of the caddy or model?" Remember that the percentage of problems are very skewed on here and other car sites. Again, people come here initially because they have a problem that needs fixing or just to complain.

I don't want to be a poster child but I and many many many others here and afar have never had head gasket failures on any vehicles. And I feel that this very small percentage problem has some how been elevated to King of Problems which simply isn't true.

Is it merely coincidence that my last 2 cars easily went over 200,000 miles and still run great? The head gaskets are still the originals and no failures. A 1990 Bonneville SSE sold with 216K and my current STS with 217K. Did I change the oil, filter, coolant, soft hoses, and tranny fluid regularly? You Bet!!! I just don't come on here and post that I do like it's something special...... it's common sense.

Lastly I'd like to remind some that you own and drive a Cadillac.....GM's royal chariot. Cadillac was intended for people that could appreciate a fine auto and that could AFFORD it. Let's not cheapen the legacy.

[Regis]

I wouldn't agree that head gasket failures are common with the Northstar. It's just the nature of internet forums that would lead to that conclusion. People rarely seek out an internet forum such as this one to brag on how reliable there car is.

Kevin beat me to the punch.

[Scotty]

They're babe magnets?  I am getting rid of my DEVILLE now!    

The Deville is a BABY magnet since I have had three car seats in it at once!

Honestly over the years, I've had a few very attractive total strangers (women! ) stop, stare, smile and say: 'That is one SEXY car..."

...( and that was in the good part of town..)

Good part of town!

[Scotty]

Lastly I'd like to remind some that you own and drive a Cadillac.....GM's royal chariot.  Cadillac was intended for people that could appreciate a fine auto and that could AFFORD it.  Let's not cheapen the legacy.

So true... Hey if I could afford a new one and trade it in every three years when the warranty ran out, I wouldn't need a garage full of tools! (maybe this is the secret, buy new if you want 100% dependability and no risk and get rid of the tools).... Hmmm

So I paid cash for an 8 year old car with 46,000 miles and my DIY repairs are like a car payment....

[jhall]

Guys.

Got to put my two bits in here.

I was very skeptical about the value of Cadillac engineering prior to repairing my car. My past experience with caddy's was in the horrible 80's when "kwalitee was #1" in the car industry.

Based on the disassembly of my '97 Deville's N* (yes, for head gaskets!) the tehnical information gleaned from the service manual (Helms), our resident guru and my past experience in rebuilding engines, the N* is a very well designed system.

Yes, there are N* engines that have problems, but the design of the power plant incorporates concepts and measures that are very logical and sound engineering - and look at the miles the engines rack up before major issues arise (if they do at all!)

With respect to being able to work on the cars, I'd certainly agree that they are a pain in the a#% for much more than injectors or plugs, but this comes from a balance of car weight, fuel economy and the design intent of having a long-lived engine without needing major work (even though this is not always a 100% guarantee)

I could have given away my '97 Deville to a charity last year and would have received full book value for tax purposes - even with a blown head gasket (under the tax law at the time). I did not do this because I knew I could not get a car of equivalent quality for the cost of repairing the head gaskets.

If I find a caddy with a popped head gasket for a good price, I would seriously consider making the engine repairs and adding the car to my collection. I have already had one close encounter in the last month and may find others!

[keith_99_sts]

I wouldn't agree that head gasket failures are common with the Northstar.  It's just the nature of internet forums that would lead to that conclusion.  People rarely seek out an internet forum such as this one to brag on how reliable there car is.

I would love to find a DeVille that had bad head gaskets that I could buy cheaply...I'd timesert the engine myself and have a nice car to replace my aging Buick Park Avenue....

This Caddy mechanic fixes a LOT of Northstar head gaskets, and there aren't that many Caddy's on the road (in comparison to Accords, Camry, etc.). My brother in law bought his '98 Deville for $6K from a dealer who is a personal friend. It has about 115K miles. $2K appears to be a really good price for the gasket job, but it's a third of the cost of the car. That's just this one repair. He also had water pump and other problems that cost about $1K to fix. Now in 12 months the repair costs are up to $3K, or HALF the cost of the car. Hey, maybe the car will run like a jewel for the next 10 years and need nothing. He can dream. It's not so bad when you start out at $6K. Buying the car new would be whole new level of frustration.

I really like my '99 STS but I'm well aware that a couple of common problems will make it uneconomical to repair. I have P0741 transmission codes that could develop into a transmission drop and repair. If the head gaskets go, and with a pending transmission rebuild, this car will be a major headache.

That's all getting away from the issue. A mundane and common head gasket repair should not cost $2K and up. That's why these cars plummet in value as soon as they leave the dealers lot. They are just too expensive to fix. My neighbor just got a head gasket fixed on their minivan. It's a 3.8L V6 engine, with a very very tight engine bay. Less than $800 at the dealership and even cheaper if they went to a private mechanic. I like the Northstar but it should have been designed to survive when removing the head bolts LOL. I could well understand a disposable $10K Hyundai car being designed with low quality. Don't even get me started on the "normal" 1 quart / 1000 miles Northstar oil consumption

Again, good luck on getting satisfaction with the warranty. After the timecerts are installed, any future problems of this nature will be much more economical to fix.