Sledge Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 April '05- bought a 98 SLS w/ 60k (around $10k) from a dealer- great shape and awesome power June '05- needed head gasket (fortunately I had the extended warranty and only had to pay 2400 of the 6k repair bill)- when I picked up the car, the digital speedometer and shift indicator were lighting up with nonsense. I brought it back to the dealer who did the head gasket (not the same one I bought from) the same day and showed a service advisor the problem. The tech had already left for the day (surprise!) and I said it wasn't a huge problem because I still had the analog speedo and indicator on the shifter- told him to look into it and call me back. I called a couple times between that day and today (Aug 01, '05) and kept getting the run around- today I left the car and they want $1300 for a new IPC and said that there was a broken wire which "must have already been broken when the car came in". To make a short story longer- I won't spend that $1300 for this fix- I don't need it that bad- but I wanted to know if there are any other ways that I can see if that is truly the problem- everything else on the instrument panel (digital and analog) works fine (so far/ knock on wood). Any direction would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 $6k for a head gasket job? That's alot of money. You could have bought a new engine for that much. Most people pay around $2500 for a headgasket job. It's sounds like both dealers are giving you the run around. My advice would be to ask around, and se if you can find an honest shop., and I'm not just referring to a dealer. In alot of cases, independent shops will actually provide much better service, mostly because they can't afford to loose customer, and rely so much on repeat business. You would be best off finding a local shop that has experience with newer Cadillac and getting a quote from them. Chances are they will be much more helpful in the long run. Unfortunetly, GM's dealer service around the country as a whole does seem to be suffering a bit, and we the customers end u getting the shaft. It's suck, and that's why I rarely ever get my car serviced at the dealer if I can help it. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhall Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Sledge, Pull the DTC codes and see what comes up. This may allow us to trouble-shoot the problems. I agree that $6K is too much for a head gasket job. Something in the $2,500 to $3,500 range is more appropriate. One important thing to know is whether they Timeserted the engine block when they pulled the heads. Otherwise the chances of another head gasket failure are very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Okay then...this si making me think twice of buying a 1998 STS. Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledge Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Sorry everyone- I should have elaborated a little more. The 6k included other "necessary repairs" such as axle, hub & steering knuckle replacement (they were all allegedly "frozen together". The repairs were done at a Caddy dealer because the dealer I bought from (Lincoln/Hyundai) said they were not familiar enough with the Northstar engine to do the work but the warranty required that I have the repair done by them or by someone they refer me to. I do give them credit for not just diving in to that job, though. I'll see what codes I can pull and then post them here. Any suggestions on an easy way to get the codes without going to another mechanic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Okay then...this si making me think twice of buying a 1998 STS.Big Jay WHY? What would this 98 have to do with a 98 that you would buy? NOTHING! Find one that has been maintained properly and that you can get the maintenance records on. Check it out CAREFULLY, run codes, drive it in all situations, look at the fluids, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 IF you are concerned about bad head gaskets you could do this: You can use a "Block Tester" to chemically determine whether there is exhaust gas in your coolant. These "Block Testers" are sold by NAPA stores for approximately $45.00. The relevant NAPA catalog is called "The PSA 2000 catalog" or the "Balkamp Catalog". The catalog calls the Block Tester a "combustion leak tester kit", so that's probably what you should ask for. From what I understand, it comes with a ball, tubes, test fluid, aspirator bulb and engine adapter (cone shaped device you place in your radiator filler cap). If there's exhaust in your coolant the test fluid changes color. Imagine the SELLERS face when you come with this test kit and it shows exhaust gases, and you about face! Imagine outsmarting him if he is trying to screw you? He may not even know what is wrong with the car and you would open his eyes! If he did have a head gasket job done, obviously you need to ask who did the job and if the block was time-serted and speak to the mechanic....I would be very reluctant to buy a car that had a head gasket job done unless I saw the receipt that specified time-serts! Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I'll see what codes I can pull and then post them here. Any suggestions on an easy way to get the codes without going to another mechanic? I think on a '98 you simultaneously press and hold the ON/OFF and INFO UP buttons. Someone will correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaddyChris Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Thats ridiculus that it worked before they did the job and it does not now. Have them fix it. It should be a non-issue. Incidentals should be written into such a repair anyway. I would not accept that they will not fix it for free. That's just me, i mean you are talking about alot of time and money. Chris Christopher Petro 94 sts 67 coupe de Ville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledge Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Thanks Ranger- I'll give that a try Chris- I completely agree, but now I don't want them near my car- my wife just had an argument with the service advisor a little while ago because they want to charge me a half hour labor to fix a wire that supposedly had to be fixed before any diagnosis could be made [ a load of crap if you ask me]- she also said that the tech has over two hours into the wire and diagnosis and they are only charging 1/2 hour as a "good faith" gesture. Seems like lately every time I turn around I'm getting shafted! I'll post what my results are- thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledge Posted August 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Well - that worked and I have no IPC codes. I had an AMP code, but I cleared it before writing it down (oops). Maybe after I drive the car again the codes will come back - if there is a problem- and I'll have a pen and paper ready. When I entered the diagnostic mode I could see that all of the led's light up so I'll keep looking around for some solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 IF you are concerned about bad head gaskets you could do this:You can use a "Block Tester" to chemically determine whether there is exhaust gas in your coolant. These "Block Testers" are sold by NAPA stores for approximately $45.00. The relevant NAPA catalog is called "The PSA 2000 catalog" or the "Balkamp Catalog". The catalog calls the Block Tester a "combustion leak tester kit", so that's probably what you should ask for. From what I understand, it comes with a ball, tubes, test fluid, aspirator bulb and engine adapter (cone shaped device you place in your radiator filler cap). If there's exhaust in your coolant the test fluid changes color. Imagine the SELLERS face when you come with this test kit and it shows exhaust gases, and you about face! Imagine outsmarting him if he is trying to screw you? He may not even know what is wrong with the car and you would open his eyes! If he did have a head gasket job done, obviously you need to ask who did the job and if the block was time-serted and speak to the mechanic....I would be very reluctant to buy a car that had a head gasket job done unless I saw the receipt that specified time-serts! Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me! Very interesting Scotty! I did not know this, and I think I will look into getting one of these? Hopefully they are available to us Canucks! Seems like all the cool stuff isn't! Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Very interesting Scotty! I did not know this, and I think I will look into getting one of these? Hopefully they are available to us Canucks! Seems like all the cool stuff isn't! Big Jay I would think that you could have it shipped by contacting NAPA. If you run into trouble and need one, I could buy it and ship it to you. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDWRIOR Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Sledge, If the analog speedometer appears to function normally, but the digital speed display and the PRNDL display are malfunctioning, then I suspect that the problem is internal to the instrument cluster. The digital display and the PRNDL display that you see from the driver's seat are actually a reflected image from a display that is arranged horizontally above the dark cluster "lens" that covers the gauges. (If you were to kneel down and look up into the top of the cluster's "hood" you would see this display.) The display is wired into the main circuit board on the backside of the cluster. The cluster receives its vehicle speed signal from one source, so if the analog gauge is correct, but the digital display is not, then it stands to reason that the problem is internal to the cluster. Then again, the fact that you saw all of the display segments light up when you entered the diagnostic mode suggests that the problem is not a "hard" failure of the display or its wiring -- perhaps it is a (rare) failure of the electronics that drive the display. (???) I happen to have a spare cluster of this type that I "rescued" from a vehicle that was being scrapped. I had never really examined the part in detail until I read your post, which prompted me to disassemble it. The design appears to be very robust; all of the display's circuit connections are soldered, and the flexible circuit board that acts as the wiring between the display and the main circuit board is fully encased in plastic, so nothing delicate is exposed. I suppose some really abusive pounding on or near the cluster could cause a problem. In any case, unless the work that was last performed by the dealer involved work in or around the cluster, which I do not believe was the case, then I would be hard pressed to blame the problem on the work that was performed. So, I think that the cluster problem appearing after the service work was performed may be purely coincidental. I do not know how the "broken wire" could be related to this problem, or why it would need to be fixed before a diagnosis could be performed. Was any more detail given about what wire was damaged? Also, I have some difficulty understanding how diagnosing the cluster problem could require so much time. Knowing how the digital display functions, and recognizing the mismatch between the analog speedometer and digital display, as I described above, led me to conclude that the cluster had a problem without any need to examine the vehicle. So I am not sure what the dealer would do, other than perform a diagnostic test with a Tech 2 scanner tool, which would require minutes, not hours. I suppose that a really ambitious technician could remove the cluster and partially disassemble it like I did to examine the digital display's connections, in hopes of finding an obvious, repairable problem, but I really doubt that was done. Electronic modules like the cluster are usually serviced on an exchange basis by the dealer, so I doubt they would attempt to repair it "in house". In summary, I tend to agree with the dealer's conclusion that the cluster needs to be replaced, and I doubt that the problem was caused by the previous service work. Having stated that, I cannot understand why a lot of time was needed to reach that conclusion. More importantly, I think that the $1300 cost to replace the cluster is excessive. I checked the online service parts catalog, and found that the cluster for your model year is available "over the counter" (i.e., it is not available exclusively as a "dealer exchange" part, as some parts are). The part number is 25702210. The dealer list price is approx. $550, but the "over the counter" price (what they would likely charge you) is approx. $965! (A near 100% part price mark-up is typical!) You could buy the part yourself from an online retailer, such as www.gmpartsdirect.com, for much less (approx. $650 from gmpartsdirect, including shipping -- I just checked). Replacing the cluster should require a competent, experienced technician no more than two hours. So, even assuming an effective $100/hour labor rate, and the exorbitant price mark-up, $1300 is too high. Hopefully, all of this information is of use to you. Perhaps you can use it to negotiate a better deal from the dealer, or you buy the replacement part yourself and install it yourself or have it done elsewhere (another delaer, perhaps?). Or, you could just live with the problem. If I was in your situation, I would remove the cluster and examine it to satisfy myself that the problem was not obvious and repairable. Assuming that was the case, I would not hesitate to buy the service part and install it myself. It would still be an expensive job, but only about half the cost that you were quoted. Good luck! Let us know how this all turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted August 4, 2005 Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Very interesting Scotty! I did not know this, and I think I will look into getting one of these? Hopefully they are available to us Canucks! Seems like all the cool stuff isn't! Big Jay I would think that you could have it shipped by contacting NAPA. If you run into trouble and need one, I could buy it and ship it to you. Mike That would be an awesome idea. I will hold you to it. I have always shipped stuff to an old friend, but half the stuff gets lost(he kept it) and I end up with nothing. Since the last time I was at his house and seen the other half of my stuff, we are no longer friends....So ya that would be great. Thanks for the offer. Big Jay Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledge Posted August 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2005 Thanks RDWRIOR! I will look into taking that apart soon- as soon as my house gets put back together (that whole priority thing)- The gear shift indicator lights up differently as I shift, but during the diag. test- all of the lights did light up. I'll let you know what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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