MARK 99STS Posted July 29, 2005 Report Share Posted July 29, 2005 Well I went to the track last night. The car ran good, but it was still rather hot out. 80+ The N* hates hot weather, but I thought I would give it a shot. I didn't put my slicks on as I thought that with the LSD and hot day I should have no problem hooking up. Guess I was wrong. I launched and the converter flashed and both tires lit up and traction control came on and shut me down. ARRRR... I hate traction control. The computer has learned and TC will still come on now if to much spin between front and rear. I still ran good considering all the circumstances. The LSD was doing it's job along with the torque converter, I just had no traction with the street tires. I ran a 14.4 in the 1/4. This was with TC coming on. With my slicks on and a cool day of 50-55 I know I will be in the high to mid 13's. Last year in the heat I was only able to run a 14.8 without TC coming on, so I am confident I will break my previous 14.15 When it cools down I will know for sure. I am working with a computer expert and together we think we have a way to get around the traction control issue. If we can work it out would anybody else be interested? If we pull it off, I will post seperately. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted July 29, 2005 Report Share Posted July 29, 2005 I launched and the converter flashed and both tires lit up and traction control came on and shut me down. ARRRR... I hate traction control. The computer has learned and TC will still come on now if to much spin between front and rear. I hate to keep arguing/questioning this point, but I guess I never will understand how you'd go faster if the TC wasn't there, allowing the tires to spin uncontrollably. The tires spun and TC came on. That just means that you need more grip or less throttle (as you mentioned). I continue to fail to see how disabling the TC would have helped you, since as we know, the TC engages BEYOND the threashold of optimum slip. If you didn't have TC, the tires would have continued to spin (slowing you down), or you'd have had to back out to let the tires regain grip, which isn't the fastest way to get down a dragstrip anyway (as you well know). Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2005 I here you Jason and I agree to a point, but I would rather be in control to finess the throttle if necessary allowing as much or little slipage as is needed without the computer taking over. I know that wheel spin is not good going down the track but a little is ok and you can't find that sweet spot with the computer jumping all over you as my TC is not consistent at all. It's the same arguement with ABS. A good race car driver hates ABS because they know what they are doing and can control the car on their own without the computers help as opposed to most who just slam on brakes and hold it down. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevyorange Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 I've actually been impressed on my 94 STS how much it takes for the TC to kick in. Not like it isn't in time to stop incredibly stupid things, but I can get some good chirpage and even wheelspin in wet weather for a little while. Of course, I don't like activating TC with 300HP on tap and then everything being dialed back... just seems harsher than a full throttle launch.... Its all amazing stuff, really, in the end. Our Saturn's TC comes on much more quicikly, of course, it weighs like 2300lbs! Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Nunnally Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Glad the car is running well. Good to measure the performance vs performance under like conditions, so it sounds like the new changes are working. Bruce 2023 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing Follow me on: Twitter Instagram Youtube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Thanks Bruce, The car seems to be running well. I like to compare apples to apples as much as possible. That way it is easier to tell what makes a difference and what dosen't. I want to get it on a dyno to get the hp at the wheels in the next month or so. I'll keep everyone posted. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Good luck Mark. I'm anxious to see the results. Quite a story with your engine and all.....I followed most of it. I know you and I are on the same page when it comes to the traction control issue. If I could rip it out i would. For me there is no positive purpose for it other then to purely protect the differential. I'm a better driver than it (TC) is. I do like the ABS though. It's saved my bacon a couple times when I was day dreaming and a little late on the brakes. In my driving world TC is a lot like the motorized trunk pull down feature. It sounds neat and impresses my friends but is completely useless or at best a hindrance. This is my opinion and I'm sure others have their own opinion. I've been able to successfully dissable my TC for 11 engine starts through the DIC. I assume there must be a similiar method for your 99 Mark. Once again Good luck. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 If you find out how to disble the T/C I would definitely be interested. Nothing worse than trying to get a good launch, and having the PCM start to to retard the timng and cut fuel, as well as pulse the brakes. If you find out how to disable it, let us know. ALso, see if it's possible to disable at will, while leaving it on during normal driving. Tha would probably be a much better idea, that way you'd have it when you really need it. Good Luck with the car, seems like it's all coming together now. Hope to see some new 1/4 times prety soon once it cools down a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caddypete Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Should have got an Eldo, You get a little button in the glove box to turn it off. But you are correct about being able to get up and moving faster without the tracton control. even if you lose traction you can get out of it a little and back on it which is quicker than letting the tc letting off the power and applying it just enough to keep from spinning. It doesn't seem to react as fast as the driver,on wet pavment you can get tires to spin quite a while before the tc kicks in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreezn Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 <<am working with a computer expert and together we think we have a way to get around the traction control issue. >> Mark, How does your car act if you go into diagnostics and turn the traction control off? On my 94 it turns it off for X amount of key on/off cycles, 15 or 20 I think. My car seems to start in first gear even with traction control turned off. Another quick way to turn off traction control is to unplug the float switch at the brake master cylinder. It also turns off ABS and will display that on the dash read out. Regards, Jim in Phoenix Jim in Phoenix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitrous1 Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Should have got an Eldo, You get a little button in the glove box to turn it off. My 96 STS has this too, but with the TC turned off, the computer starts the car out in second gear to limit the amount of power applied to the wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Mark, point taken. I've always been of the persuasion that if you, as a human being sitting in a leather chair, can perceive a tire slipping or whatever, it's too late and it's already cost you. In addition, I've gotta say that the TCS on my '97 doesn't sound nearly as intrusive as the setup on you guys' 1998+ cars. Maybe the fact that yours has StabiliTrak and mine doesn't has something to do with it? On mine, even if I break the tires loose, the TCS intervenes for about 1-2 seconds, but only with brakes to keep the wheels reined in. The car continues to blast forward because engine power isn't cut...at least not that I can perceive. I also have relatively sticky tires (Michelin Pilots), so that might have something to do with it. The tires I plan to install when these wear down have double the treadwear rating, so they'll probably be much easier to spin. Either way, I'm glad to see you back on the track, and look forward to further reports when you get the slicks mounted up in cooler weather. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Jason, I am also running Michlen Pilots(255's). That is why I was shocked that I was able to break both loose at the track. Danbuc, I am working on a way to have it switched so you can turn it off and on at will just blike the switch works now but start in first gear. I will keep you posted. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuc Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 <<am working with a computer expert and together we think we have a way to get around the traction control issue. >>Mark, How does your car act if you go into diagnostics and turn the traction control off? On my 94 it turns it off for X amount of key on/off cycles, 15 or 20 I think. My car seems to start in first gear even with traction control turned off. Another quick way to turn off traction control is to unplug the float switch at the brake master cylinder. It also turns off ABS and will display that on the dash read out. Regards, Jim in Phoenix Unfortunetely, we don't have that capability to turn off T/C for 50? engine cycles like you can with the OBDI car's. All we have is a button, that locks out 2nd gear when you hit it. That's what is so frustrating to me. Also, the second the computer sees a fault in the ABS circuit (such as pulling the fuse, or disconnecting something) it automatically defaults to 2nd gear anyway as a fail safe againt wheels spin, since it can't do anything about it if it happens Mark 99STS, a switch would be perfect. Let us know when you start work on the system. One of my teacher's here at school used to work for GM as an electrical engineer (he actually helped design the cockpit on the space shuttle) and also has some friends over at Delphi that might be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Folks, How about installing another speed sensor on one on the front wheels (if that is where they are). If they are on an inboard axle etc, then it will be a bit more tricky. but really - nothing that could not be handled with some ingenuity, duct tape and ty-raps. Why and how does this work - do you say? In theory, TCS only kicks in if over a 5% difference. So, if both speed sensors are on the same wheel/axle then no difference. Could it be that simple? The fundamental idea is to route the new sensor through a multi-contact, ("break before make style" may be safer) switch or relay that facilitates selection of either normal operation or drag strip operation. Obviously, the normal operation would have the wires routed to the same sensors as they are now. In drag strip mode, both of the sensors on one wheel will feed both sensor inputs. And reasons why not? Regarding "Management of Change" analysis, I can not think of any inherent safety compromise that has been made. Aside from unlimited front wheel spin and sliding sideways out of control. And then there is the problem of tranny damage, etc. OK then, forget I even mentioned it... Good Luck Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32v_dohc Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 How about installing another speed sensor on one on the front wheels (if that is where they are). If they are on an inboard axle etc, then it will be a bit more tricky. but really - nothing that could not be handled with some ingenuity, duct tape and ty-raps. Excellent idea. What if you carry it one further and hook all four inputs to one sensor. It is just a blip into buffering. It won't hurt the sensor or the computer. Shouldn't even affect the "seen" signal. Looks easy enough. Now who is going to roll the dice on the EBTCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 32v_dohc, "Looks easy enough. Now who is going to roll the dice on the EBTCM" Ahh, don't be a such a wuss! The Brake Control Module on my company GMC pickup was only $750 installed. And I have people lined up to testify that I never use the brakes! Surely a Caddy part like this can't be more than $1,500 or so? I'm sure these guys who really want to smoke the tires won't mind a little experimentation for the good of tire-makers world wide? An EBTCM would be a mere pittance for a red-blooded, hot rodder. ps, Does anyone a a draft copy of a reall good disclaimer? Add power to leave problems behind. Most braking is just - poor planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 30, 2005 Report Share Posted July 30, 2005 Or... You could consider transformer isolating the sensor signal from a rear wheel and feeding that into the front wheel signal lines (after you isolate the front wheel sensors, of course). Wired and switched in a way that would permit "normal" or "performance" selection. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 Here's a previous TC discussion: http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...=traction&st=15 Again I maintain that TC is the "clumsy" drivers friend. Perhaps i should pull my punches like some but I wouldn't want to leave room for misunderstanding. TC on my 94 works by applying the front brakes. Now if i were in a situation on the road like say avoiding a deer or a pedestrian and I had to react quickly which caused me to lose tire contact with the road THEN TC would be helpful. Because at that point I'm not looking to maintain forward momentum. I'm simply trying to regain control of the car and it's grip on the road. Let's hear it for TC....Yay!!! Let's face it. I don't think GM intended caddy owners to race their caddys. But some of us do and TC plain and simple is the racers enemy. It's too slow in reacting and even slower in dissengaging. Anyone that races knows that 1-2 seconds is a lifetime when it comes to finish times.....about the time it takes for TC to dissengage. If you don't think it cuts forward momentum then you really haven't pushed your caddy. I've done plenty of real world tests using the same marked off stretch of road, with TC and without, same day, same temps, day after day. I really wish I could say something positive about TC simply because I'm a caddy fan... sorry. Oh and I suppose I should mention that I use Dunlop SP5000 tires. AA traction rating (W speed rating). My question that I would like to pose to the non-believers is this: If TC doesn't effect forward momentum, whether off the line or while accelerating, then I suppose if the Traction Control kicked on and off 20 times during a single run it wouldn't effect the end run time???......as opposed to the Traction control not engaging at all. Something to ponder. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 ....Now if i were in a situation on the road like say avoiding a deer or a pedestrian and I had to react quickly which caused me to lose tire contact with the road THEN TC would be helpful. Because at that point I'm not looking to maintain forward momentum. I'm simply trying to regain control of the car and it's grip on the road. Let's hear it for TC....Yay!!! .... My feeble mind would call this an ABS situation; not what Cadillac probably means by a "traction control" (acceleration) condition. Different systems intended to produce different results using (front) brake line plumbing common to both ABS and TC. Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regis Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 Yeah Jim, you're right, my example wasn't the best after rereading it. However, I believe I got the point across in the following paragraphs. Perhaps I should have used an actual example such as: One rainy night I was accelerating down a road and out of the corner of my eye I noticed something just ahead and to the side. In a split second I realized that it was a fox running at my car (probably rabid). I jerked the wheel to the right... away from the advancing fox and quickly turned the wheel back to the left to keep the caddy on the narrow road. I could hear the TC engage and dissengage. I never applied the brakes. Unfortunately the fox managed to take a lap or two around the tire well. "Burns" rubber " I've never considered myself to be all that conservative, but it seems the more liberal some people get the more conservative I become. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK 99STS Posted July 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 Kger2, I think "stabilitrak" would kick in your example.(just kidding) Seriously guys what we are looking at is tying all 4 sensors into one and switching it like 32v_dohc mentioned. Granted it may kill ABS when switched off but it would only be in an isolated situation that is controlled by switching it off or on. This way you can go back to factory setting or "performance/drag mode", whichever you choose. I don't see how this would hurt anything else as the computer would sense no wheel spin difference between all 4 wheels. MARK 99STS TURBOCHARGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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