"top Tier" Gasoline

[Ranger]

I have always been of the belief that gas is gas. I have always purchased gas from whoever had the best price (especially now), and never had a problem I might add. Here is some interesting reading on the subject. Not sure if I should change my long standing opinion. If it is all true, then it deserves some consideration, but on the other hand, the proof is in the pudding. 103K with no problems. My last one '92 Deville had 125K with no problems. So, is "better" really better?

http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html

[Scotty]

Good information Ranger....

[Bob D]

So, is "better" really better?

http://www.toptiergas.com/index.html

You know I'd like to think not, but I've got a few 'highly tuned' cars that are really picky as to which brand...not octane, brand. You take a turbo charged engine, up the boost, timing, fuel mapping and you'll really feel (and hear..'ping'..) the difference although they're the same octane, 92 in this case. Union 76 had repeatedly proven to be the best for these cars.

[Matt]

I used to think that gas was gas too. I have learned here that the higher the octain rateing the higher the ability of the fuel (or engine) to resist pre detonation. I was useing mobil detergent hi test gas but when I switched to Sunoco 94 I could really feel the difference. The engine is much more spunkey and I get better milage. After learning a little about gas here I am wondering is the increased performance just in my head?

[Ranger]

Matt, this article is talking about comparing 87 to 87, 89 to 89 and 92 to 92 (apples to apples) by brands. I did not mean to imply that 87 was the same as 93.

[Matt]

Hi Lary, O - ok I got it now.

[JohnnyG]

Can you say "Marketing"? There is a lot of bad and misleading info in that article. It allows people to draw there own conclusions, which evidenced by the replies, usually works very well. The govt. specifies a minimum amount of detergent in gasoline, true, but to say gasoline manufacturers cut back on the amount of additive "by up to 50%" was designed into the program. This is because the initial injection rates were "clean-up rates" designed to remove any EXISTING deposits when the program became mandantory. Now, detergent specs themselves aside, (some might give better fuel milage, but nobody has come forth with hard numbers on that claim) all injection rates are based on EPA CERTIFICATION for that additive. More is not necesarily better. One of the makers that injects more than 3 times the required additive at my rack was even left off of the good list...EXXON. Do you think that was an accident? What do you think the chances of all of this gas being made by the same refinery are? Or marketed by the same entity, whoever that might be? I am uncomfortable also with auto manufacturers "CHOOSING" a specific brand of fuel for their car. Ford has recently chosen BP as the gas of choice. Guess what? I sell almost as much BP gas over my loading rack as I do my own brand! It's the SAME BASE GAS! The competition for the big bucks being earned by oil companies is getting stiffer all the time and is worse now than ever in my 32 year career in the business. For my money, I'll stick with Marthon. http://www.marathon.com/

[jhall]

Well,

It's marketing with a spin.

EPA has mandated that by 2009 all fuels must meet the EPA's Tier 2 requirements in order to reduce pollution levels - specifically in Chicago and Milwaukee regions as well as others.

Rather than fight the EPA over the Clean Air Act, fuel producers add a spin about how their new fuel will clean the engine and - tada! - a good effort by those environmentally-concerned gas producers.

JohnnyG is correct. There is a lot of bullsh*t in the add. The efforts in fuel blending are based in air pollution control (again mandated by EPA!) and yes, GAS is GAS when you look a the base fuel.

If you can stand to read the federal register docs, look at

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/1999/M...-13/a11384a.htm

and you'll see what really drives the new fuel requirements.

[mike5514]

In my case I dont have much of a choice all the stations in my town get their gas from the same refinery in texas I dont expect that different trucks carry different brands I buy the Premium gas only. As far as additive packs for the different stations I find it hard to believe but I try to keep a open mine. I still lean toward in most situations gas is gas. mike

[revolcallidac]

I'm new on here, but for my .02, my car does not like Amoco premium. Tried a few times and same result, a little difficult to start. Back to Shell and purrs like a kitten first time every time. Had a Pontiac with a 3.1 V6 about 13 years ago that was the same way.

[WarrenJ]

Why is it so difficult for folk to understand that different gasolines are *different*? That's where the additative package comes into play. Huge amounts of money are invested here; both technologically and in advertisements. The differences may appear small, but nonetheless they exist.

Q: Is Coke different than Pepsi?

A: Yes (well, I can't tell).

Q: Is Minutemaid different than Tropicana?

A: Yes.

Q: Is Michelin different than Goodrich?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you think that Godiva is the same as Hersheys?

A: You better not!

Q: Do you or I know what those differences are?

A: Likely NOT, absent strenuous research activity.

Amoco Hi-Test was candy to my '71 Mark III; Mobil Hi-Test "pinged" in that car. BP Hi-Test doesn't light my current Baby's fire (low mpg); Shell Hi-Test can't be beaten (+1mpg)!

Use what works for you.

Regards,

Warren

[Ed Fenwick]

Use what works for you is good advice! All gasolines are different but they all have to meet accepted perameters. ie. octane, stability over time, exestant gum, many others. I herd of one company in Alaska that said 92 octane was anything over 91.6. The company that I worked for required it to be at least 92.3 because there is an error factor of 0.3 between refiners in the Pacific area.

They all meat the distillation requirement but the higher octane, the lower the distillation temperatures in the early fractions. Some older engines may not run well until warmed up!

Most major brands are consistant. Discount brands buy on the spot market and what you buy yesterday may not be the same tomorrow.

Use what works, usualy major brands work Ed

[JohnnyG]

It's marketing with a spin.

EPA has mandated that by 2009 all fuels must meet the EPA's Tier 2 requirements in order to reduce pollution levels - specifically in Chicago and Milwaukee regions as well as others.

Rather than fight the EPA over the Clean Air Act, fuel producers add a spin about how their new fuel will clean the engine and - tada! - a good effort by those environmentally-concerned gas producers

Thanks Mr. Hall. I was under the impression that the Tier 2 requirements were based on reduced sulfur content in the gasoline. Is that not correct? I'm sure that the requirements go further than that, but it's kinda odd that the article says nothing about sulfur.

This excerpt, from a 2004 article also seems to indicate that part of the Tier II requirements went into effect early.

In spite of the relatively high crude oil prices experienced during the quarter, refining and wholesale marketing profitability was relatively strong primarily due to the supply uncertainty resulting from the gasoline Tier II regulations which became effective on January 1, 2004. We are pleased the EPA acted swiftly to not allow waivers for higher sulfur gasoline imports but, rather, continue the approach of allotment credits to meet the new specifications.

[jhall]

JohnnyG,

The sulfur content is regulated by an ASTM test - I believe it's ASTM D4814 (revised in 2004) , so the Tier 2 specifications are supported by this and a large number of other ASTM docs / tests.

With regard to the additives, these can alter the performance of the fuels and can make differences among certain engines - especially finicky high-performance engines or those with carbon build-up, but lots of the additive effort is based on pollution control and the base fuel source.

If you look at CFR 40 Part 80 as well as ASTM D4814, you'll get a real feel for the various fuel requirements according to source, state and season (winter/summer). Ed Fenwick shed some good light on what goes on in the industry.

[awise]

In the drag racing world, another reason for running "race gas" other than octane is the consistancy in "specific gravity". In basic terms that means that from batch to batch the fuel will run (burn) consistently. This results in limiting the tweaking that would be needed of the sensitive thoroughbred race engines that would occur with pump gas.

As others have experienced, I have had cars that ran better on one brand as opposed to another. Although the octane was the same (or so they say) there was a difference in pingability (new word), and performance. I do notice though that my newer computer controlled cars are much less sensitive than my old big block Camaro's and 390 AMX was.

Oxygenated fules are a totally different beast. I really wonder if it is all hype.

Alan Wise

[OynxSTS]

This thread is a lot like the thread we had a month or so ago about motor oil. The fact is, like motor oil, they are all a little different. And like motor oil we have all been bombarded with marketing trying to convince us that this difference is MASSIVE. But unlike the Coke Pepsi example, gas, like motor oil, has to meet a basic set of minimum standards to be acceptable and be certified for sale. All gas sold in North America is based on the same “recipe”. Each company will add their own host of additives, detergents mostly, and the rest is marketing hype.

Like motor oils, with some rare exceptions, most modern cars will run just fine on whatever you pump into them… Turbos, Hi-comp muscle cars, Superchargers, yes you might find that one brand of 94 Octane ever so slightly better than another, but detonation problems are more likely to be effected by humidity, elevation and weather than gas brand.

Over the years lots of brands have attempted to claim you will get more MPG with their brand (of additives) than others. Every one of those claims has been scientifically proven to be false. You will note that as gas companies revive this old marketing line now and then, I think Shell was the latest, they will spin it along the lines of “The mileage you get with (insert your favorite brand here) can’t be beat” which is true… since they are all equal.

As you might guess I have zero loyality to any brand of gas. My whole life I have pumped what ever is cheapest and have never had a gas related problem...

Just lucky I guess

[rollingthunder1994]

Hey All,

I used to be loyal to one gasoline company which was Shell. Ever since they switched to their new brand V-Power, my car seems to burn the gas more than usaual and i sometimes get a slight hesitation when i first stepped on the gas. Then i switched to Amocco/BP, that gas burned even faster than shell. The other day i was at my friends Stereo shop here in Elmont, LI. The BP gas station is across the street from him, on the opposite corner there is a no name gas station run by Middle eastern men. Well they got a shippment of gas, the tanker truck said ALL ISLAND TRANSPORTATION. Well after filling up the no name gas station tanks, that same truck went across the street and filled up Amocco/BP tanks. I couldn't beleive what i saw. The no name station was selling Premium for $2.49 and BP was selling the same gas from the same truck for $2.75 My question is are we wasting our money by going to Amocco, Mobil, Exxon, etc when it seems like all of these companies are using the same gas, but just adjusting their prices because of their name.

[JohnnyG]

Rollingthunder, don't be too alarmed by what you saw. This business is kept sort of a mystery to most people for MANY reasons. I can tell you this, a tanker truck is made up of several "compartments", which can hold different grades of fuel, or even different brands. A couple of compartments at one place and a couple somewhere else could be perfectly legitimate. In fact, since we've already established that the biggest differences in products are the additives, the truck can contain products sold on as many as 5 different invoices and still be legit. Chances are though, that he did NOT go to 5 different places to LOAD that truck! Ed Fenwicks comments aside, and they are generally correct by the way, product quality variability (and the resulting drivability issues) can come from many different sources for many different reasons. The single biggest variable is not the supplier, but the hauler. The care in which the product is handled by the delivery truck driver is vitally important to product quality. A driver leaves 50 gallons of diesel fuel in a compartment, then loads 2000 gallons of 93 on top of it...and your distillation is out the window!

This is important now, but will become EVEN MORE important in the future. With the introduction of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in 2006, and the big rigs equipped with catalytic converters, just (sorta) like a car, any mixups or sulfur contamination can cause serious efficiency loss for the CAT, and expensive repairs down the road.

Enough for now.

[95SLS]

I think Gas needs a label like you find on food products now. I have a motor that says no Alcohol, but yet many Gas stations use alcohol but it never says sop at teh pump. If I use gas with alcohol, it voids the 7 year warranty.

Mike

[OynxSTS]

This too is an interesting point... Unlike gas, all Alcohols are NOT created equal.

Ethanol, usually made from corn, the only alcohol that is safe for human consumption, is also safe and compatible with most cars and can actually reduce emissions and raises octane a couple of points. Me like!

Methanol, usually made from wood or even coal, is very poisonous and is infamous for dissolving rubber gas lines and gaskets. It is incompatible with most cars (above certain concentrations) But I wouldn’t use Methanol blends in any of my cars regardless.

Isopropyl Alcohol is the third most common alcohol out there, usually found in rubbing alcohol and household cleaners, also poisonous. This one has the function that it is best at dissolving water into Gas and as such it is used as a gas line antifreeze and is often added to gas tanks to "remove" water. Not as hard on rubber bits as methanol but not often (ever?) found in pump gas.

Long story short… Ethanol Good, Methanol Bad.

[KHE]

Ethanol, usually made from corn, the only alcohol that is safe for human consumption, .

You forgot about alcohols made from barley, grapes, and other grains...

[Ranger]

I recently heard on the news that Bush's new energy bill will allow for doubleing the alcohol (ethanol) content in fuels. I recall Guru saying that it takes twice the alcohol to produce the same energy as gasoline. I guess this means our MPG will be dropping another 10% in the near future.

[OynxSTS]

Ethanol, usually made from corn, the only  alcohol that is safe for human consumption, .

You forgot about alcohols made from barley, grapes, and other grains...

I forgot my personal favorites, Potatoes and Cactus

[OynxSTS]

I recently heard on the news that Bush's new energy bill will allow for doubleing the alcohol (ethanol) content in fuels. I recall Guru saying that it takes twice the alcohol to produce the same energy as gasoline. I guess this means our MPG will be dropping another 10% in the near future.

Very true. Unlike "pure hydrocarbons" which are only Carbon and Hydrogen... All alcohols carry along some Oxygen atoms. This does two things... It helps them burn cleaner (good) and it reduces their total stored energy (bad).

PS to the reader(s) who refuses to run alcohol for fear of voiding his warrantee, he probably already is... The High Octane (premium) "Oxygenated" gasolines that all of the "top tier" brands are selling now all contain alcohol... Not always, but usually “Oxygenated" means an Ethanol blend.

[jgr7]

do a search on Guru and octane I think and you will find a good thread. I borrowed this excerpt from it for another forum that I belong to. This topic has a universal appeal and many opinions.

This issue gets really confusing, leading to the idea of different burn rates, etc... because there are many different ways to increase the octane rating of commercial gasoline. If the gasoline is pure gasoline the gasoline that is higher octane rating will be blended differently and will have a higher percentage of...octane in it. But, adding lead to fuel increases the octane rating. Adding alcohol increases the octane rating. MMTBE and other compounds increase the octane rating. Alcohol burns slower than gasoline....so...a "premium" fuel spiked with 10% alcohol to get the octane rating (common) will burn a little slower. Not because of the octane rating....but because of the alcohol in the fuel. This also leads to the myth that regular fuel will "make more power" ... someone must have run regular and premium on an engine on a dyno that was jetted perfectly and when they put the premium in (spiked presumably with alcohol 10%) the engine ran a little lean (10% alcohol will make it 5% lean) and made less power. So...the old wives tale of regular making more power is born....