maydog Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Hello, The 96 aurora developed a refrigerant leak, which I was able to remedy with a can of sealer. However, I accidentally put a can of compressor oil instead of refrigerant. I added as much refrigerant as I could, but the AC barely blows cold. Could the excessive oil be the problem. I have checked the low side port and the pressure needle stays in the blue zone, but the needle vibrates noticeably. Could the compressor be shot? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 It has been said here not to utilize sealer, it causes more problems than it solves. How much oil did you put in 2 ounces? Early on sailors navigated by the stars at night and the North star became the symbol for finding ones way home. Once you know where the Northstar is you can point your ship in the right direction to get home. So the star became a symbol for finding ones way home or more symbolically even finding ones path in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I think there are several things causing the poor cooling symptom. The sealer, excessive oil and you may be overcharged wigh refrigerant. Is the sealer just the o-ring conditioner or is it the goo that is supposed to leak out and harden in the presence of air. Neither is good but the latter is much worse than the former. You really need to monitor both the high and low side pressures simultaneously along with vent temperature and relative humidity to assess performance of the system. The low side alone does not indicate the status of the system. You could be in the safe range according to the "gage" but the high side may be close to tripping the relief valve and puking the refrigerant. You should have the refrigerant recovered - be sure to tell the shop what kind of sealer is in there so they take precautions to safeguard their recovery machine. The system should then be flushed to remove the oil, etc., and then leak tested to reveal the source of the leak, Have the leak repaired properly and then add in 8 oz of PAG-150 refrigerant oil. Have the system evacuated and charged and it should be fine. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 If you only added a couple of ounces of oil, that is probably not going to affect the cooling much. You may just be overcharged. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydog Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 8oz can, i believe. It is the nasty goo. It did fix the leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjayzway Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I think I would be gettin'er flushed asap. Just go to a shop that services a/c and tell them you want a tune up on the system, but don't tell them you put oil in it...... They will flush the system, and refill with new refrigerant. Life is too short to grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Where was it leaking? I doubt that the sealer goo will be a permanent repair though. If you have 8 extra ounces of oil in the system, that is probably what is reducing the cooling capacity along with a high probability that you have overcharged the system. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydog Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I couldn't find the leak, which is one reason I tried the goo. I think I will try and get it flushed this weekend. Is there any way for me to drain the extra oil myself by opening the drain on the accumulator so very slightly? Moral of the story, do not recharge your AC in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I couldn't find the leak, which is one reason I tried the goo. I think I will try and get it flushed this weekend. Is there any way for me to drain the extra oil myself by opening the drain on the accumulator so very slightly?Moral of the story, do not recharge your AC in the dark. All you will accomplish by depressing the schrader on the accumulator is venting the refrigerant. The excess oil will not be removed. Another thing that may happen is the sealer goo will clog the schrader valve. You may be looking at a condenser replacement as the goo won't be able to be flushed out of a parrallel flow condenser unless the shop uses R-134a to flush as a liquid and immediately recovers it. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike5514 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 To much oil can cause a warm air condition also will a restricted expansion valve and introducing goo into the accumulater that is designed to remove water will probabley harm your system in the long run I agree with khe In addition to serviceing I would replace the accumulator and the expansion valve I think it is causing your needle to vibrate. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 You would have done better if you ask me by putting dye in the system and finding the leak than trying to seal it up.. Given that I have over 40 eyes I can sympathize with you regarding seeing in the dark... I used to be able to see through walls, now I am lucky to dial my cell phone! Early on sailors navigated by the stars at night and the North star became the symbol for finding ones way home. Once you know where the Northstar is you can point your ship in the right direction to get home. So the star became a symbol for finding ones way home or more symbolically even finding ones path in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I agree with Scotty, dye is the best way to detect the leak. Stop leak fix-it type cans are short term, and will not last. Also, 8 ounces sounds like a lot of oil. I have a dual evaporator 72 ounce refrigerant system in a full size van, and it only calls for 6 ounces of oil on the system label. Too much oil will cause the system to underperform. The only away you can get a portion of the oil out is to purge the system, some of it will remain in the condensor, and such. If you do decide to break into the system and start replacing anything, perform the dye check first. It will show you any and all leaks of significance. You can buy the halogen light, the yellow sunglasses and one can od dye for about $ 45 at an autoparts store. Perform the inspection near dusk, much easier to see the leak, rather than in full sunlight. I found electronic sniffers to be unreliable and give false readings. You should also consider getting a A/C manifold gauge set, or borrow one. The low side and high side combined readings are the best way to get a proper diagnosis. Freon has gotten too expensive to perform a 'shotgun' diagnostic approach. Beleive me, I did that recently and spent a lot of money on freon before I got my system properly/reliably fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I found electronic sniffers to be unreliable and give false readings. What brands of electronic detectors have you tried? I have an Inficon Tek-Mate and it will detect a leakage of .4 oz per year - that is one small leak... It is a heated diode type unit which are the most accurate and reliable. I always use the electronic detector first as there is no expendables other than batteries. It self calibrates and has a high and low sensitivity so I can pinpoint the source of the leak. Electronic units are also the easiest to detect evaporator leaks as the probe can be inserted into the vent duct. If I cannot locate the leak with the electronic detector, I break out the dye, glasses and UV lamp. The electronic detector will show you where the system is currently leaking and dye will show you where it has leaked in the past month. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydog Posted July 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 The leak is gone .. at least mostly. I was fiddling a little more with the AC tonight as alldata does mention an oil drain on the accumulator - I did not find one. Anyway, with the compressor the low side pressure climbs to 90. Kick the compressor back on and it falls back between 30 and 40. Does that mean the orifice and compressor are ok? I am getting nil cooling. I found the driver side fan was unplugged, could this make the condenser overheat on a hot day in heavy traffic and puke refrigerant? Where is this relief valve? Anyway I will take it to a shop and let them know the refrigerant is contaminated, get it purged, leak tested and refilled. I will let you know how it turns out. How much should I expect to pay for this service? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenJ Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Given that I have over 40 eyes . . . . . That's a LOT of eyes to have Mike! May We assume that at least some of them are in the back of your head? Regards, Warren EDIT: Would sure like to see a photo! There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. - Ludwig von Mises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I found electronic sniffers to be unreliable and give false readings. What brands of electronic detectors have you tried? I have an Inficon Tek-Mate and it will detect a leakage of .4 oz per year - that is one small leak... It is a heated diode type unit which are the most accurate and reliable. I always use the electronic detector first as there is no expendables other than batteries. It self calibrates and has a high and low sensitivity so I can pinpoint the source of the leak. Electronic units are also the easiest to detect evaporator leaks as the probe can be inserted into the vent duct. If I cannot locate the leak with the electronic detector, I break out the dye, glasses and UV lamp. The electronic detector will show you where the system is currently leaking and dye will show you where it has leaked in the past month. I am not sure of the brand, I borrowed it from one of my employees that does auto AC repair on the side. He stated he paid $ 400 for it, and it was a 120 VAC (plug-in) type. I assume it is very accurate, it also had a small bottle for calibration, and a pot. that you can set the sensitivity with. It also had a 'heated' sensor to ionize (burn) the freon particles and a filter. One of the first irregular issues I had with it is when it tripped when I was sniffing between the insulation and the hose it jacketed (going from the dryer to the compressor, I believe). I then cut the insulated jacket off the hose (thinking the hose had a leak), and I did not detect anything. The next morning I spoke to this employee about that occurance and he admittedly stated he has gotten 'false' readings from insulation before, he believes it is something in the insulation polymer that triggers the leak detector. I would got false readings in a multitude of other areas, re-sniffed and could not trigger the detector again. In the end, I dumped in a can of dye in the system and almost instantaneously found the leak at both end caps of the HT6 compressor. Interestingly, I found some articles on the web that stated HT6 and HD6 compressors (same compressor design, different mount), notoriously leak at their endcaps because the endcaps are not pinned to the housing main body, and can be forced out of alignment (thus distorting the endcap seals), if they are improperly torqued, or in the case of the footed-mounted HT6, bolted to an uneven surface, such as the platen of the mounting bracket. I believe late model Caddies utilize the HD6 compressor, which is a face-mounted design. For a HD6, the article states to loosen both mounting brackets (I suppose there are two with this design), tighten the compressor to the mounting brackets, then retighten the mounting brackets. Thus, reducing the chance of putting the compressor in a bind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maydog Posted July 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Here is the issue... I called around to about 5 shops and a few chains. No one wants to touch an AC system that has sealer in it. Does anyone know of a shop in the Minneapolis, St. Paul NE subburbs that will deal with contaminated refrigerant. Can I purge the system myself with dry compressed air? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I think the reason for that is because when the recapture the refrigerant, they recapture the sealer also and it contaminates their machine and 134A supply. Its illegal I think for them to vent your refrig to the atmosphere. My AC guy said that they flush with brake clean, but clear that with Kevin before you do that. You will need to detach every component (including the compressor) and hose to flush them individually, I just went throught this, plus its very hard to flush the condenser so I replaced mine... I DO believe you need to remove the condenser to flush it properly. The evaporator is also hard to flush, build up pressure in the components and hoses by putting your thumb over the end to build up pressure and then releasing, its a messy job, wear safety glasses when you do the evaporator. One good thing is that you WILL need to replace all of your o-rings and compressor seals so you will undoubtedly rememdy your leak. Its a big job.. Mike I used http://acsource.com for my flush, o-rings and flush gun Early on sailors navigated by the stars at night and the North star became the symbol for finding ones way home. Once you know where the Northstar is you can point your ship in the right direction to get home. So the star became a symbol for finding ones way home or more symbolically even finding ones path in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I called around to about 5 shops and a few chains. No one wants to touch an AC system that has sealer in it. That does not surprise me...... I would call the manufacturer of that goo you put in there and ask them how to get it out of the system before you tear into it. Ask them how long it takes to harden up in the presence of air so you know what kind of timeframe you have. Maybe they can recommend a solvent that will cut it. Brake clean makes a good flush solvent as does mineral spirits. You will probably need to replace the condenser as Mike suggested. When you tear into it, pull the compressor and flush it with PAG-150 refrigerant oil. Replace the accumulator as well. I sure wish that sealer snake oil would be removed from the market. It would save people money in the long run. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but if you do decide to fix it, perform the dye leak test first, so you know any and all leaks before you go into R & R. Also, it would help to look at the current low and high side pressures to ascertain if you compressor is worth a hoot. If you have to replace a compressor, spend the extra money and buy a new one, versus a rebuilt unit. Also, do not forget to replace the orifice tube, its cheap. Denatured alcohol would be another choice for flushing, it will 'flash off' better than mineral spirits and not leave a residue. The dryer (accumulator) is a 'must' replacement, if it isn't new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I found electronic sniffers to be unreliable and give false readings. What brands of electronic detectors have you tried? I have an Inficon Tek-Mate and it will detect a leakage of .4 oz per year - that is one small leak... It is a heated diode type unit which are the most accurate and reliable. I always use the electronic detector first as there is no expendables other than batteries. It self calibrates and has a high and low sensitivity so I can pinpoint the source of the leak. Electronic units are also the easiest to detect evaporator leaks as the probe can be inserted into the vent duct. If I cannot locate the leak with the electronic detector, I break out the dye, glasses and UV lamp. The electronic detector will show you where the system is currently leaking and dye will show you where it has leaked in the past month. I am not sure of the brand, I borrowed it from one of my employees that does auto AC repair on the side. He stated he paid $ 400 for it, and it was a 120 VAC (plug-in) type. I assume it is very accurate, it also had a small bottle for calibration, and a pot. that you can set the sensitivity with. It also had a 'heated' sensor to ionize (burn) the freon particles and a filter. One of the first irregular issues I had with it is when it tripped when I was sniffing between the insulation and the hose it jacketed (going from the dryer to the compressor, I believe). I then cut the insulated jacket off the hose (thinking the hose had a leak), and I did not detect anything. The next morning I spoke to this employee about that occurance and he admittedly stated he has gotten 'false' readings from insulation before, he believes it is something in the insulation polymer that triggers the leak detector. I would got false readings in a multitude of other areas, re-sniffed and could not trigger the detector again. In the end, I dumped in a can of dye in the system and almost instantaneously found the leak at both end caps of the HT6 compressor. Interestingly, I found some articles on the web that stated HT6 and HD6 compressors (same compressor design, different mount), notoriously leak at their endcaps because the endcaps are not pinned to the housing main body, and can be forced out of alignment (thus distorting the endcap seals), if they are improperly torqued, or in the case of the footed-mounted HT6, bolted to an uneven surface, such as the platen of the mounting bracket. I believe late model Caddies utilize the HD6 compressor, which is a face-mounted design. For a HD6, the article states to loosen both mounting brackets (I suppose there are two with this design), tighten the compressor to the mounting brackets, then retighten the mounting brackets. Thus, reducing the chance of putting the compressor in a bind. The case seal leakage problem in the HT6/HD6 compressors was fixed by a design change in January, 2001. Anything manufactured after Jan, '01 should not have a problem. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 The case seal leakage problem in the HT6/HD6 compressors was fixed by a design change in January, 2001. Anything manufactured after Jan, '01 should not have a problem. Makes sense, my HT6 was original from a '96 era van. I have been told short of that, it is a good compressor design. I am also told that Delphi actually makes and labels the AC Delco compressor, although I do not know that for sure. I bought a new Delphi HT6 for $ 290 locally, a new Four Seasons would have been about $ 20 less. A new AC Delco unit goes from $ 355 on up over the internet, plus the shipping costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I bought my AC Delco compressor from gmotors.com for $260 for my 1996, and if I recall I did see Delphi on it... Early on sailors navigated by the stars at night and the North star became the symbol for finding ones way home. Once you know where the Northstar is you can point your ship in the right direction to get home. So the star became a symbol for finding ones way home or more symbolically even finding ones path in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Hank Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I bought my AC Delco compressor from gmotors.com for $260 for my 1996, and if I recall I did see Delphi on it... Was it new or rebuilt? I searched every internet site I could find and could not find a new AC Delco HT6/HD6 for less that $ 355. It seems like rebuilt units were more than $ 260. If you did get a new Delco for $ 260, that was a great deal,...what was the shipping cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 I bought my AC Delco compressor from gmotors.com for $260 for my 1996, and if I recall I did see Delphi on it... Was it new or rebuilt? I searched every internet site I could find and could not find a new AC Delco HT6/HD6 for less that $ 355. It seems like rebuilt units were more than $ 260. If you did get a new Delco for $ 260, that was a great deal,...what was the shipping cost? Willie, it was new, I don't recall what the shipping was. I really like www.gmotors.com a lot... Early on sailors navigated by the stars at night and the North star became the symbol for finding ones way home. Once you know where the Northstar is you can point your ship in the right direction to get home. So the star became a symbol for finding ones way home or more symbolically even finding ones path in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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