Matt Posted June 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 I thought they may be close any way. That is why I just spent a few hours out in the 90 deg sun searching for ground wires. I got the two in the front kicker panals (left-right) and the ones in the trunk. I also found a bunch of nifty things in the trunk, holy cow. I looked for ones under driver seat but no luck there. I found one bad one on the alternator bracket. It looks like the people that swaped engines broke it and put on a lousy crimp connector, it was loose in the connector. I re did it and put on a good one nice and tight and sealed to the air. I checked each wire in the packs that go to the PCM, all looked good to me. I had my fingers crossed and started her up and wouldent ya know it, the first thing it did was to do that engine miss and stammer, just once and it ran smooth after that. There is something I'm missing still, I just cant find it. My brain is going to pop. What is making it do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 Sounds like you checked everything BUT G100 and G104, the two I described previously. ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 I forgot to mention about those two. I could not find them! I thought that very strange but then I thought maybe this diagram is different then my year car. It was hot so I gave up for now. Why were they not there? Do ya think they should be? I looked good as I could by the starter and did not see it. This evening when the sun moves from my side of the house I will look around the radiator some more. I just took a quick trip to the store and it was fine. It has a mind of its own.----------- I'm going to post a picture of the wireing harness from inside the distributor, actually, when I got a distributor that was not bent to put in, I did not like the shape of the wireing harness so I used the stuff from the distributor I was replacing. On the part of the harness that plugs into the 2 prong side of the ignition module is some kinjd of electronics component. This component is on a plate that screws down to Ground. I need to ident it so I know what it does. Maybe it is bad. I will post it in a bit, the dog needs to go out and I need a shower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 I may be picking at straws here but I need to know what this part is and what it does. It connects to the two prong side of the ignition module in the distributor. Could it be going bad? and could it be giving me my intermitent rough idle and lag under exceleration? It does it once in a wile, it happens fast and then goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stokes Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Matt, Everything you describe sounds exactly what I went through.When you put the new PCM in did you do the re-learn procedure described in the service manual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 I am on Dial up now, my Verizon DSL is down for some odd reason. Hi Stokes, if you mean the relearn for the TCM( throttle control motor) yes I did the abreviated version the Guru gave me. Actually talking with Mike tonight I think we hit on something. The engine seems to go through what seems to be a fuel starve thing and my fuel guage has been moving up and down very crazy. At idle it starts to shake and when you press on the gas there is nothing there, it almost stalls out, it kicks a bit and then all of a sudden it takes off again. But that fuel guage is moving up and down for some reason. We (Mike and I) want to check out the fuel pump circuit, its grounds and the fuel pump relay. Considering what the engine is doing and the fuel guage this may be the way to go. There may be a problem with the pump or relay or just the ground. If any body knows ware these things are please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 My DSL is back on line now. So if any one knows ware the Fuel Pump Relay is please let me know. I think the fuel pump circuit is the problem. I just have to fix this baby, it was great for a wile since the new engine and PCM went in. Im going to hit the rack in a short so I will be back in the AM from work. My girl is telling me to take off Monday, she has the week off. How sweet that is... Good Night All and to all A Good Night... Matt P/S I still need to know what that Electronic Component is in the pic above. I need to rule out everything.. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 The miss is worse then ever now. I barely made it in to work this AM. As soon as I started the engine it began its problem. It's like a dead miss, the tach drops and then it clears up again. Some times you press on the gas and it feels like there is no fuel, then it catches and goes. I( cant figure it out... Does any one know ware the fuel pump relay is??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinW Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 I suspect that the fuel level sending unit and the fuel pump relay circuits have something to do with the G100/G103 grounds... ___________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 This car has taken a toll on me. Do ya want to know how bad it was today? Even my girl friend get how bad it was today for me woth this car. To Sum Up; Drove to work engine kicking and bucking. Duct tape fuel pressure guage to windshield, 39 PSI constant, even through rough run problem. Engine almost shuting down still had 39 PSI. I then notice Volts are 11.9 - 12.2, as volts came up engine smoths out. Volts up to 12.7 and smooth engine. Head back in to work, volts drop and engine began to run rough again. Ah HA,,, Why low voltage. So load test battery. Battery is 3 month old Interstate. Begin load test. No load = 13.2 volt, Add 100 amp draw for 3 seconds, battery down to 9.4 , Fail!! Why battery low/ Test alternator, found 12.1 volt output at roughly 13 amps.FAIL !! Think to my self , " I got it now, yippie" . Wile waiting for parts locate fuel pump relay. They were under plastic cover for the fuse block in engine compartment. The relays were under another cover under the main cover.Inspect, check for corrosion. Notice the 5 relays in there were all the same.Other relays were for horn and 3 other things. I swaped horn relay and fuel pump relay for the heck of it. Next do vacume test, found 18Lbs constant even when problem was happening. Replace Alternator and battery, cost $180.00... Check new battery for heck of it, All pass. Check Alternator for heck of it. Fail!!! @#$%^&* Git bad alternator. Call and have another alternator run out to me. Test and Pass. 13.4 Volts at 80 amp. Reasy set go-- Start car. Idle smooth for about 3 to 4 min. Turn on AC and head lights and check voltage. All good. Drive car toward home and problem back, so bad that I could not touch gas pedal or it would stall out. So I idled off road way and called my boss to send flat bed for me. Came home tonight in borrowed Ford F250 King cab. So my plans for Tuesday are, 5 gallon can of gas and a match.. Just kidding, or am I?? Seriously, I will remove coil cover on Distributor and with test meter check the battery wire terminal for voltage to see if its droping during the problem. I will also use a big heavy guage wire with two battery clamps at each end to check for ground problem by attaching one end to negitive on battery and when problem is happening attach other end to engine ground and then frame to see if problem clears up. There has got to be a bad ground wire someware. When I was trying to get home the fuel guage was going crazy and I noticed the wipers were very slow, not only that when I turned on he wipers the engine got worse. Ya can't make this stuff up!!! I'm tired, so tired. I have to get ready for work tommorow, need gatoraid- fruit - matches - money for gas- any way, guys take care. Catch ya all later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 My God Matt. I am so frustrated just reading this. I can only imagine how you feel. Wish I could do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Lary I'm doing the best I can. I just am not experienced enough to figure this out. I'm headed for the rack now. Catch ya all later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I am at the end of my ideas on this Matt. Realize that the drop in voltage could be caused by the drop in RPM that you are experiencing. The thing that complicates this is that no codes are being set. A clue is that it occurs when you load the electrical system which would lead me to believe that your electrical system is having a hard time providing the load, that could be a bad ground or high resistance in your battery cables from creeping corrosion. Or a bad connector but I think you have looked at connectors. One more thing, I spoke to you about Marika and her statement about engine mounts see this link http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?sho...c=4928&hl=mount Logan, have you heard of engine mounts creating ground problems? I am going to have a look at my manual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navion Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Matt, I have been away for a few days and have just now skimmed through the five or so pages on this problem. After all that you have done, I think that you really have a grounding issue, or some wiring issue that is causing this. First Check to see if ALL the cables are hooked up to the battery. I believe that there are two positive and one ground hooked to the battery. (At least there are on my 94 N*.) If all that checks out, I would make some temporary new ground leads and run one from the engine to the car's body. Another one from the engine to the sub frame, and a third from the battery negative to the body. Use 10 gage wire and ring terminals. Make sure that all the connections are to bright metal. See if this cures it. If it does, you possibly have a ground wire with broken strands inside, held together by the cover. Even the battery ground cable could be the culprit. If the temporary ground cables do cure your problem, you can unhook one at a time to see if the problem reappears. That way you can isolate which area is causing a problem. Good Luck, Britt PS: Don't even think of a can of gas & a match, When you do find it, it will be a simple thing. Britt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northstar Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Before you spend any more money figuring this problem out you could have the dealer find the problem for you then you could fix it or have them do it. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Matt Sprucegoose has a service manual for 93 that he wants to sell, see it here, Mike http://caddyinfo.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6304&st=0& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Thanks Mike, I just sent him an E-Mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Tuesday 06/07/05 This Am at work I put the car up on ramps and went under looking for ground wire problems. This past weekend I searched for a list of ground wires and found all but the ones from the starter area to frame and from radiator support to frame. Today I found out why I could not find those two, THEY WERE NOT THERE!!! Near the starter was a broken casting showing what was left of a threaded hole ware I believe a ground should have been. I found no trace of a ground wire any ware near the radiator support. I can not figure out how the car ran for so long perfect, why did it do that. What finally broke down to give it this problem? I then ordered to very heavy guage braded ground straps. I put one from the bell housing to the frame. I used nuts and bolts and then sprayed them with an anti - corrosion chemical. The next one I put from the starter area to the steel frame of the radiator support and sprayed those bolts to. I gave it a good look around wile under there and did a little re-routing of a few wires I found. The big test!! Start her up and the first thing I saw was that the Volts went from the mid 12.0 range to 14.0 to 14.2 volts. A big difference. The engine did not falter once on a 10 miniute test drive. My final step was to re-check the engine timing and make sure everything under the hood was buttoned up good. O and I re-mounted the PCM back in place. I ran it again under load of AC and lights and it held well. I hope it stays good now, please let it stay good. I spent two hours off the clock today and yesterday put in a new Alternator and battery. I still feel justified in that because the output of the alternator was only 12 volts at about 15 amps I think it was, and that was directly off the power lug on it. The battery did not hold up on the load test, even after I charged it for a wile. So there iares lots of new components on my ride now. Lets hope for the best guys. To everyone who contributed to this repair a GREAT BIG THANKS TO YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I'm not breathing yet Matt! I have my fingers crossed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Matt, I have been away for a few days and have just now skimmed through the five or so pages on this problem. After all that you have done, I think that you really have a grounding issue, or some wiring issue that is causing this. First Check to see if ALL the cables are hooked up to the battery. I believe that there are two positive and one ground hooked to the battery. (At least there are on my 94 N*.) If all that checks out, I would make some temporary new ground leads and run one from the engine to the car's body. Another one from the engine to the sub frame, and a third from the battery negative to the body. Use 10 gage wire and ring terminals. Make sure that all the connections are to bright metal. See if this cures it. If it does, you possibly have a ground wire with broken strands inside, held together by the cover. Even the battery ground cable could be the culprit. If the temporary ground cables do cure your problem, you can unhook one at a time to see if the problem reappears. That way you can isolate which area is causing a problem. Good Luck, Britt PS: Don't even think of a can of gas & a match, When you do find it, it will be a simple thing. navion, you were right! The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 "I will bet though, when it is figured out we are all going to be slapping our foreheads and saying, "Now why didn't I think of that? It was so obvious". Like Mike, I am still holding my breath but feeling much better about this. I assume this was a result of the engine change? If so, those guys owe you a discount. If this one can be figured out by this board collectivly (though Navion gets the prize) anything can be diagnosed. I hope this thread can finally be put to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Hi, Yes, you have me laughing as well. I hope we can end this topicl. I'm home now and the trip was fine, the engine ran smooth on the move and at traffic lights to. I watched the volt meter very close, I will most likely be doing that for a wile now. It showed 13.8 to 14.2 volts the whole trip. I was on pins and needles the whole way just waiting for the begining of another episode, but it never happened. I think I'm going to start back up useing the Sunoco top grade again. It ran better and got better milage. I'm still not convinced, I think it's just playing games with me. It will take a wile to believe it, if ya know what I mean. This just goes to show that the more you can do on your own the better off you are. This 7 day problem was indeed a direct result of the engine swap. As far as that shop oweing me a discount goes? I think I -O- them a little something, but better not to discuss here. You guys that got me going on this ground thing deserve the gold star for sure. This board rocks.... One week and thirt miniuts ago exactly ( 7:45 PM ) the first sign of this problem occured. I have not rested on it since. It's been a bit stressfull but just maybe it's time to breath again.. Catch you guys later, it's time to put a little wax on paint now and clean the wheels. Wow, a bit of normalcy again. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Matt, look at all of the experience YOU and WE have gained! It was a matter of time before you nailed it. Yesterday when we spoke on the phone it was clear you were getting there. You have become an EXPERT on the 4.9 now for sure! Most of all I think I speak for us all when I say your patience with this has been herculean! And now you have a car that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb! I don't know what you plan for your 'installer' but he would never understand, he can't hold a match to you now. I just would NEVER direct ANY work toward him and hurt him in his pocket. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Hi Mike. First I have to say how much confidence I gained by speaking to you on the phone the other day. That meant so much to me, it made me forge on even though I felt I was getting close to the end of my abilties. At one point I entertained the idea but for a miniute of just taking the car someware to be fixed. But the thought of that was even worse then the problem itself. You just can't trust any bodys work but your own. I emagined the new problems that could arise from a stranger working on my car. I would rather park it in the driveway broken down then let someone else touch it. I just came in from doing a full wash and wax, tire, wheels and wheelwell clean up. I thought I might go out for a ride but I think I will hit the couch instead, I'm tired... By the way Mike, I sent Sprucegoose and E-Mail about the service manuals but have heard nothing from him yet. If you see him on and have the time please mention I want them from him. I will catch ya later Mike, have a good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Spruce said he would contact you.... Take it easy Matt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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