OynxSTS Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 I will never watch CBS, CNN (Communist News Network), never buy NEWSWEEK, never buy the NEW YORK TIMES, along with the rest of the liberal crap, etc... The only way to fight this is to NOT support them... Scotty, honestly, you need to re-think this position... Come on, you missed a whole week of the Run-Away Bride... It truly was "Great TV" Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 If its not on FOX, ESPN, STAR TREK, HISTORY, MILITARY channels, I doubt I would see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 There is just less market share to go around and when the government allows unchecked importation of vehicles with no controls whatsoever it ultimately is at the expense of the domestic manufacturers. This is perfectly clear to every country on earth.....except the idiot politicians in the US who are more interested in their own personal gain than the US as a country. US vehicles are heavily taxed when imported into every other country on earth while most any one can sell anything in the US with little or no tariff involved. Well stated! Most (all?) of the foreign makes now have plants in the US so if we did attempt to control the importing of cars, they already have a loophole. All the "free trade" agreements benefit every country EXCEPT the US... Hundai has been bombarding the TV with ads bragging about how they spent a billion dollars on facilities in the US. Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Japanese brand hybrids are "kicking our butts". Besides them spewing all the falacies of how great hybrids are, what really got under my skin was their notion that hybrids are the least of American vehicle manufacturer's problems. Import Hybrids IMO are the silver lining to the domestic quality perception dilemma, including customer satisfaction and market share… Unlike an internal combustion engine, which with minimal maintenance easily lasts 20+ years. Hybrid batteries are not going to last much past 10 years, regardless of what they do… Anyone ever price out a new set of batteries for a Prius??? Try $8000… When Toyota was asked what the expected life of the batteries are, they state the batteries will “last the life of the vehicle”… I would say… Exactly! I'm betting that sometime in the next 3-4 years there is going to be a whole wack of PO'ed Prius owners with dead cars... I'm also betting that as the batteries age they will fail in large batches...i.e. in 2009 all of the 2000 Prius's will die... Class actions... Lots of media... I just hope that GM is a) still in business and not "hybriding" its fleet at the time! Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 I always thought that the batteries would be expensive to replace. It would be ironic they contributed to environmental problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Yeah, those people laugh as they go past the gas pumps now, but "He who laughs last ..............". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith_99_sts Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 True, Except, and this is a difficult truth... Most people are kinda stupid...And have no clue how to invest... The plans under discussion for inclusion in Social Security are fixed interest, no risk plans. You wouldn't be able to invest 100% into your employer or Nortel or whoever. But it's somewhat academic because the usual suspects are fighting to keep control of your money, and spend it to buy votes before the retirees ever need it. Clearly this Ponzi scheme will crash, but there is good old rich taxpayer to fall back on. The dishonesty on this issue is transparent and sickening. It was only a few years back that President Clinton described the system as in crisis, and Partick Moynihan proposed private accounts. The system is less solvent now than it was then. GM have dug a hole for themselves. At times in the past, they negotiated with the unions for wage and pension benefits and made bad choices. Probably they will not be allowed to fold (remember the bailout of Chrysler?). There is good old rich taxpayer again. Now that their bonds are officially rated in the junk category, a recovery is a long way off. It's all about the product, and if they can produce a few winners, they'll survive and prosper. I wish them well, because this is about more than just cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arash Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 I was just reading the latest issue of Time magezine and it has an article about the Pension Insurance system run by the government. The official name of the federal agency involved in this is PBGC which stands for Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp. The fund is already 23 billion in deficit according to the article. I totally agree with some of the comments you made regarding free trade and how some countries like Mexico and China are violating some laws. They don't have the right to "dump" their products in U.S unless they allow for free import of American products. The whole idea of free trade and liberal economics is about every country focusing on producing what it produces most efficiently and countries be allowed to trade freely. Up until 1980's USA dominated many high tech industries like cars, aircrafts and computers but the technology is now available to many other nations at low cost. Many Asian countries have now very educated populations and with the help of massive FDI they're attracting they can produce many high tech goods which only US and some other industrialized nations could produce a while ago. So it makes sense to raise the tarrifs a little bit in order to compensate for massive differences in labour costs between Asian countries and US in order to create a more level playing field. I think the idea of quick transfer of technology is overlooked by people who signed those free trade agreements. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonA Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 I'm doing a presentation for my peers at work next Wedesday actually, and it's about hybrids and the US auto industry. We have a monthly technology brief by one person, and last month's brief sparked the question "why are Honda and Toyota kicking our butts...what is Ford and Chevy doing?" It's my turn to brief this month, and I'm going to start by answering the gentleman's question. That got me half enraged, and half empassioned to research the issue a little further. As usual, there are really more sides to the issue than you always hear. For instance, the current Japanese hybrids use huge NiMH batteries to store electricity, vs. the conventional lead-acid batteries. Sounds good...until you find out that it's really difficult and energy-intensive to reclaim the metals from those NiMH batteries. Toyota and Honda tell us they're "recyclable", and technically, that's true. But probably at a higher cost than it's worth. In addition, the lead-acid battery is about the most recyclable thing you can buy. It's 100% recycled when you get it, and 100% recyclable on the way out. Guess how much of that NiMH battery is recycled content? Zilch. I called Toyota directly, and they said it was "really technical engineering information that we can't give you." Uh-huh. Honda admitted that 0% of the new battery is recycled. Add to that the fact that in real life, with real loads on the system (A/C, defroster, etc), hybrids don't get much better mileage (if at all) compared to their gasoline cousins. So what's the benefit? There's a financial cost up front for the hybrid equipment, and an environmental cost for those new and essentially unrecyclable batteries. Contrast that to some of the things we're doing. Like how 'bout Chrysler's MDS on the Hemi engines. They claim as big of a fuel savings as hybrids do, without all the expense of the hardware and battery. GM has a similar DoD system. GM also has a parallel hybrid in the Silverado truck, but it doesn't use NiMH batteries. It uses a couple or three lead-acid batteries. EPA ratings are 18/20. Whether it turns out to get that in the real world, I guess we won't know for some time. How does it compare to a Japanese hybrid truck or SUV? Don't know, they don't have one. They've hybridized their most efficient vehicles already, presumably to get those HUGE EPA numbers you see on the advertisements. But even if the hybrid Silverado saves just a little fuel, it's available essentially as a no-cost option through rebates and incentives, and it doesn't have the environmental cost of the Japanese NiMH battery. Is that a better solution than what the Japanese are doing? Maybe, maybe not. But the question really stemmed from the person only being exposed to mass-media, and not really knowing the full story. Perhaps the domestics were smart for not jumping on the bandwagon of the Japanese hybrids, and focusing on their own environmental initiatives, like the DoD, the oil life monitor, etc. For instance, did you know that Marc Graham (president of Jiffy Lube) is quoted in Lubricants World Magazine as stating if they can get customers to shorten their drain intervals by 100 miles it would mean an additional $20 million in revenue for the company per year and if they can get consumers to do one more oil change per year it would mean $294 million for the oil change alone and $441 million in revenue when they include ancillary products and services that go along with the oil change. Is that an incentive to keep pushing 3/3000 oil changes. Uh-huh. Jason(2001 STS, White Diamond) "When you turn your car on...does it return the favor?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Jason, and do you know what is a shame, the media will NOT report what you just found out, the public will never know it! If GM pushed the OIL LIFE MONITOR and the potential savings that you just touted like they do ON STAR, they would help their image greatly... Why don't they think about these things.....along with statements like "at GM we are helping to save OIL, or reduce our dependence, etc, or something similar".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cad1 Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 It should be obvious to all that control of your own pension monies is essential. You choose the investment risk level that makes sense for you, and you have your money no matter what happens to the employer or Federal government. Private pensions are considered a radical extremist idea to some. Probably the same mob that will be crying when they retire broke. I hear that, but you know people don't want to be responsible for themselves. 92 Deville w/210k miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cad1 Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 I will never watch CBS, CNN (Communist News Network), never buy NEWSWEEK, never buy the NEW YORK TIMES, along with the rest of the liberal crap, etc... The only way to fight this is to NOT support them... Scotty, you brought tears to my eyes. 92 Deville w/210k miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 I will never watch CBS, CNN (Communist News Network), never buy NEWSWEEK, never buy the NEW YORK TIMES, along with the rest of the liberal crap, etc... The only way to fight this is to NOT support them... Scotty, you brought tears to my eyes. I hope that's a good thing.... I kind of "lose it" on these types of discussions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFBonnett Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 GM is just a dry turd about to blow away in the winds of competetive pressure. For years they've been peddling their commercial paper, essentially worthless, on the strength of their being "GM". You can only "rebadge" and "reconfigure' just so long. Sooner or later the financial community recognizes that the "emporer has no clothes". That has happened to GM now and they have nothing on the showroon floors or in the pipeline to redeem themselves. They are buried under a mountain of debt, pension obligations, and healthcare costs. The buying public will no longer be scammed. So GM and Ford are going to have to suck the hind tit while Toyota and other makers of quality products take their market share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 GM is just a dry turd about to blow away in the winds of competetive pressure. For years they've been peddling their commercial paper, essentially worthless, on the strength of their being "GM". You can only "rebadge" and "reconfigure' just so long. Sooner or later the financial community recognizes that the "emporer has no clothes". That has happened to GM now and they have nothing on the showroon floors or in the pipeline to redeem themselves. They are buried under a mountain of debt, pension obligations, and healthcare costs. The buying public will no longer be scammed. So GM and Ford are going to have to suck the hind tit while Toyota and other makers of quality products take their market share. You know, your post has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of days and it has been bothering me. I have to disagree with your statement about GM. I think they are making serious strides to correct their ship and to improve their products. I just don't think that given the circumstances it will be easy. They have made some of the most exciting and accepted cars in the Escalade, Vette, CTS, STS, XLR, Hummer, GTO, and if you ask me the entire GMC line. I for one think they are trying hard and are starting to turn the corner, you have to at least admit that... Personally I think the financial community can go to hell they are the most corrupt, greedy, unethical, self-serving bunch on the planet, and the sheep just follow along. They are fair weather friends at best, lets look at potenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Toyota & Honda start contributing to the long term well being of the United States? Surely you jest. They area now winning the war they lost 60 years ago. They will never contribute any more than they are forced to and while the emporer may have no cloths, the politicains have no balls. As an employee of United Airlines I have been chasing the "carrot on the end of the stick" (my pension) for 39 long years. As you can well imagine, this is a very very sore subject with me. United is not the first and surely will not be the last. If you think you are immuned, think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 I agree 100%, I wish I knew the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 I agree 100%, I wish I knew the answer Part of the 'answer' is in your hands on two, four, and six year election cycles: Send people to DC that have the proven ability to think plus the backbone to act. Part of the 'problem' is people with the ability to think and the backbone to act seldom run for public office: Therefore we can't elect them. [sOAP BOX MODE = OFF] Jim Drive your car. Use your cell phone. CHOOSE ONE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stsjoe Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 OK I'll put in 2 cents, If GM had a better warranty (sp?) I think it would make a BIG diff on sales, right now I think everyone is 3yr. 36k, GM should set them selves apart, doing what everybody else does aint gonna cut it and for once Scotty I gotta disagree on the GTO, great idea bad design! Ford did a good job on the Stang using a popular(67 68 69) kinda flavor if it didn't say mustang you'd still know what it was. The GTO missed by a mile, but as usual thats just an opinion. Take it Easy People, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 I am not sure what your history is, meaning maybe 1) you are a Ford man, or have been a Ford man in the past, if thats the case I understand your excitement with the Mustang, sort of like why I understand die-hard New York Mets fans, they can't help it, 2) you are a nostalgic type of person, 3) you are to an age where "old is good" and believe that "they don't make things the way they used to", 4) you ARE old and it makes you feel young seeing old cars like the Mustang re-done!, My statements are not meant to be sharp, critical or nasty. I never understood the hype and excitement behind the Mustang, it was a piece of crap and I hated riding in them. Years later we found out that they were DEATHTRAPS due to the placement of the gas tank in the trunk, but FORD wouldn't change it for fear they MIGHT lose a SALE!!! Let me say one thing very clearly, the GTO craps ALL OVER the Mustang, its not even close, not even the slightest bit close... go to their web sites and compare the cars... GTO 6.0 liter, 6,500 RPM, 400 HP LS2 advanced engine Mustang 4.6 liter 5,700, 300 HP old school typical Ford Engine Suspension GTO advanced independent suspension Suspension FORD, old school solid rear suspension, (OMG)!!! Drag coefficient, you tell me, you think the Mustang is better? I highly doubt it, maybe that is why GM is the Fuel Economy Leader http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/fuel_economy.html Look at the following two photos, the new GTO is a modern efficient version of the 69 GTO, while the Mustang is a direct copy of one of the very few things that Ford got LUCKY with!..... Opinions vary as they say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Missed by a mile my EYE, its RIGHT ON! The 2005 GTO, definately harks back and has STRONG roots to the 1969 GTO in my humble opinion.... without prostituting itself like Ford did with the Mustang! I think GM is doing great things, and I think its catching on. The Gloom and Doomers will never be made happy.... Be objective people, don't jump on band wagons. Realize that in the last presidential election, approximately 50,000,000 people voted for each of the candidates. Now that is not too impressive until you think that the two candidates were about as polarized as two candidates can get... on every issue... so, with that in mind, and assuming that the last election was a huge sampling database of each group that came out 50/50 more or less, you can infer that out of every two people you meet, one of them has totally WACKED out beliefs, ideas and opinions about almost everything. Note that I did not say what party I belonged to, because my statement fits in BOTH directions.... In short, GM will NEVER appease everyone nor do they need to... GM ONLY will appease who it needs to appease, and the rest can go buy Fords and Toyota's! Thats life as I see it... This premise also fits with Microsoft, another favorite of mine who also has many haters out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poobah Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 I've been following this thread for several days. I haven't had time to read all the posts in detail, but I have a sense of what has been said both here and in the business news. It's pretty sad stuff, especially for a life-long lover of GM cars. I have tried to keep a perspective on it, however. Consider the following: I have read that GM will probably loose its position as the world's largest automobile manufacturer to Toyota in the next few years. That is a bummer, but only because GM has been number one for as long as I can remember. The automobile business, however, is not an all or nothing game. The second, third, fourth, and fifth largest manufacturers are very much in the game and they make a lot of cars. There is speculation that GM might go bankrupt. Bankrupcy does not necessarily mean a company sends everybody home, locks the doors, and goes out of business. Bankrupcy is a legal procedure that a company can use to reorganize and restructure its financial obligations so it can remain in business. Many of you will remember that Chrysler was very much on the ropes in the 80's. They even went to the government hat-in-hand for a financial bailout. Today, twenty years later, they are still around, they are still making lots of cars, and they still have lots of loyal fans. Automobile manufacturing is an extremely competitive dog eat dog business. It's becoming more and more so every year. I have read that Chinese auto makers are gearing up for a serious assault on the world market. That will present yet another serious challenge for Detroit to face. Through all of this, the fact remains that General Motors is a major player in this game. They make and sell a hell of a lot of cars every year. There is no question in my mind that they will have to rethink, reorganize, restructure, and reinvent themselves constantly as time goes on. There is also no question in my mind that they will be around in one shape or form and will be building cars as long as I am around to drive them. Happiness is owning a Cadillac with no codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OynxSTS Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Missed by a mile my EYE, its RIGHT ON! The 2005 GTO, definately harks back and has STRONG roots to the 1969 GTO in my humble opinion.... Scotty the picture you posted was a 70/71 GTO not a 69.. IMO the 69 was a much prettier car... Though the 70/71 GTOs were plenty nice too.. Easin' down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in front, I had three more in the back ZZTOP, I'm Bad I'm Nationwide Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Missed by a mile my EYE, its RIGHT ON! The 2005 GTO, definately harks back and has STRONG roots to the 1969 GTO in my humble opinion.... Scotty the picture you posted was a 70/71 GTO not a 69.. IMO the 69 was a much prettier car... Though the 70/71 GTOs were plenty nice too.. Yes you are right, I miss spoke my 71 for a 69... Sorry, replace all my 69s with 71s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.