Scotty Posted May 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Mike: 1. In my experience the engine temperature is very stable. It stays between 198 and 203 when I drive and I think THIS IS AMASINGLY STABLE. Yes, in traffic it can go up a bit, so what a big deal? This engine WAS DESIGNED TO HAVE THIS TEMPERATURE. We just still under this old thought that "temperature of the engine should not be higher than temperature of the boiling water". We do not have these engines anymore. I assume you still warming up the engine 15 min before drive. My neighbor does. He start the car at 6:30 AM and drove at 6:45 AM. 2. Like Guru said, the water pump takes up to 7! HP. Now, take in attention that electric motor efficiency around 60-70% for this size. The alternator efficiency around 60-70% too. So, a whole thing will have 49% efficiency in the best case scenario. It means this electric water pump will take up to 14 HP. Plus believe me, electronic switch will not make the car any cheapper. Then, the alternator and electric water pump will require a better cooling themself. Just imagine what size and cost this 7HP electric water pump will be. 3. Existing system controls fans independently of the speed. And this is good. Why we should make additional variable (speed of the car) to that function? It works fine now and turn fans on if temperature is too high. Can't see any point, sorry. Why you don't consider the idea to make water pump blades angle adjustable so you can change it perfomance? JimD: To make fans work like generators we should add the electrical switch too. And more: more efficient generator will take more cooling air off radiator. Yes, it's possible the fan is parasitic on a highway speeds. If fan will generate electricity it's spin will lower (under load) and it will even more parasitic. In reality the power of these fans working like generators will not be enough even to light the interior lights. Cheers, I am going to call you when I am in bumper to bumper traffic on the CROSS BRONX and I hit 240 - 245 degrees with the AC on this summer and see if you say 'no big deal', it is a big deal in my mind.. I am not under any impressions regarding boiling water at all. I don't warm up my car, only in the old days when I had a choke, no more, we have had deep discussions this past winter about warming up the car and how its not good and contamintes the oil My discussions here were theoretical as I DID find that HIGHER RPM lowered my coolant temp. This was a theoretical discussion to see what Guru thought And your idea about variable pitch blades on the water pump works I like it... lets get a patent on it Guru has been working on relaxing my nerves regarding the high temps I see in summer traffic. Given that I will be flushing, replacing hoses and replacing the stat, I will be ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldgamer Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 ...And your idea about variable pitch blades on the water pump works I like it... lets get a patent on it... I knew you'll like it! I never experienced temperatures like this. Once with huge traffic on NJ Turnpike (it took more than 3! hr to get to exit 7A) it was possible something like ~230 (unfortunately can't remember now), but I know that if I don't remember I wasn't really concern. Logically I understand that this temperature is fine, but in a heart I still want to be temperature lower. But I more trust to my left part of brain than right part, so I'm saying to myself: these guys know what they do. They design this engine taking into attention thousands of things, test it in a laboratory and on a roads. And after that they try to make it to be easier to repair, cheapper, more standart and efficient. They have huge experience. They do very complex work. In the same time they limited with thousands laws. Of course it possible to make water pump with different attack angle. But what it will cost? How long it will last? In some applications where this thing is a major they do use a different attack blades like ships propellers or power plant turbines. Don't be in a rush to replace the thermostat (if it works fine). The thing is your thermostat opened completely (I assume it works fine) at traffic temperatures anyway. The thermostat with lower opening temperature will not be MORE OPENED than current thermostat for sure. It will make warming up slower and it is no good. It will make scope of working temperatures wider (because of other equipment will try to keep coolant temperature accordingly to the old settings) and it is no good either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blunted Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Mike: 1. In my experience the engine temperature is very stable. It stays between 198 and 203 when I drive and I think THIS IS AMASINGLY STABLE. Yes, in traffic it can go up a bit, so what a big deal? This engine WAS DESIGNED TO HAVE THIS TEMPERATURE. We just still under this old thought that "temperature of the engine should not be higher than temperature of the boiling water". We do not have these engines anymore. I assume you still warming up the engine 15 min before drive. My neighbor does. He start the car at 6:30 AM and drove at 6:45 AM. 2. Like Guru said, the water pump takes up to 7! HP. Now, take in attention that electric motor efficiency around 60-70% for this size. The alternator efficiency around 60-70% too. So, a whole thing will have 49% efficiency in the best case scenario. It means this electric water pump will take up to 14 HP. Plus believe me, electronic switch will not make the car any cheapper. Then, the alternator and electric water pump will require a better cooling themself. Just imagine what size and cost this 7HP electric water pump will be. 3. Existing system controls fans independently of the speed. And this is good. Why we should make additional variable (speed of the car) to that function? It works fine now and turn fans on if temperature is too high. Can't see any point, sorry. Why you don't consider the idea to make water pump blades angle adjustable so you can change it perfomance? JimD: To make fans work like generators we should add the electrical switch too. And more: more efficient generator will take more cooling air off radiator. Yes, it's possible the fan is parasitic on a highway speeds. If fan will generate electricity it's spin will lower (under load) and it will even more parasitic. In reality the power of these fans working like generators will not be enough even to light the interior lights. Cheers, I am going to call you when I am in bumper to bumper traffic on the CROSS BRONX and I hit 240 - 245 degrees with the AC on this summer and see if you say 'no big deal', it is a big deal in my mind.. I am not under any impressions regarding boiling water at all. I don't warm up my car, only in the old days when I had a choke, no more, we have had deep discussions this past winter about warming up the car and how its not good and contamintes the oil My discussions here were theoretical as I DID find that HIGHER RPM lowered my coolant temp. This was a theoretical discussion to see what Guru thought And your idea about variable pitch blades on the water pump works I like it... lets get a patent on it Guru has been working on relaxing my nerves regarding the high temps I see in summer traffic. Given that I will be flushing, replacing hoses and replacing the stat, I will be ready. I know we all have to just let this engine do its own thing but I can relate to Scotty. Driving in the city, especially the Cross Bronx (worst nightmare) where its just bumper to bumper as far as the eye can see, can get you paranoid when there's nothing to look at besides watching your coolant motivate its way up. Last time I got stuck in that heat/death trap of an expressway I hit 232 with my A/C on... which isn't anything now that I see 240 has been accomplished. I hate when my Eldo is sandwiched in a sea of cars.. its almost cruel, shes always dying to run. -Scotty just FYI.. my water pump, tensioner and all cooling belts are new. This could explain our differences in tempature under the same conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up2ng Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Guru, What about coolant temp that goes below 195 ? I replaced my radiator & thermostat and I noticed that the temp will drop to 192-190 on occasion and has gone as low as 188. I know you are going to say don't look at it but I was just curious shouldn't it stay above 195 ? at all time after the motor is warm ? Could you swap stats with Scotty....??? Sounds like that stat is on the low side...it happens sometimes I guess. Guru you read my mind! I would love that! It's only a couple of months old, if you want it Scotty it's yours Like I said I just want to make sure that it stays in closed loop while i'm driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 I know we all have to just let this engine do its own thing but I can relate to Scotty. Driving in the city, especially the Cross Bronx (worst nightmare) where its just bumper to bumper as far as the eye can see, can get you paranoid when there's nothing to look at besides watching your coolant motivate its way up. Last time I got stuck in that heat/death trap of an expressway I hit 232 with my A/C on... which isn't anything now that I see 240 has been accomplished. I hate when my Eldo is sandwiched in a sea of cars.. its almost cruel, shes always dying to run. -Scotty just FYI.. my water pump, tensioner and all cooling belts are new. This could explain our differences in tempature under the same conditions. I hit >240 last August on a 95+ degree day, on the Cross Bronx and turned my AC off which is good and bad as the fans go off below 222 (i think)... I also believe that as a stat gets old it loses its ability to stay wide open and it can bind. I have all the parts to do the following: new Tensioner new Idler Serp belt (goodyear gatorback) upper hose all molded heater hoses water pump tensioner (belt new) new OEM stat new AC condenser (this will allow me to blow out all of the debris and leaves from the radiator) and a flush of the dexcool So I should be good to go to da bronx to see the Yankees! Now if I can only get away from family obligations I will be able to do this work...Thanks for your NYC insight...where are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 With all this great reading I'm getting a bit freeked out. I'v heard how important cooling is for my aluminum 4.9 Now that I have the new engine in I'm worrying about things a bit to much I guess but I do not want to go through putting in another engine. I looked at your list Mike and I do have all new hoses. I put them on myself BUT I did not use any molded hoses. I use very good strong heater hose the shop gets and I routed everything as close to perfect as I could get it. I was carefull with all the new hose clamps too. The thermostat is new as the coolent charge. The radiator looks clean inside as far as I can see in. There was plenty of room for the hoses with no extream bends being made. ( are the molded hoses better to use? what might happen if they are not used? ) I do have a new Serp belt, but not an idler. I hope it's good. You can't really tell I guess. I know the fans are good, I tested them today by putting on the AC and watching them go to work. At first they came on slowly and with in a few miniuts as the engine got a bit hotter then came up to full speed. Boy did they wiz along. I drove the car and the temps were fine, true it was not 95 out and I was not stuck in traffic but it looked OK. Time will tell, my guess is about a month from now, June will heat things up a bit. My faith rides along in the engineering that went into the desighn of my Seville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 It's only a couple of months old, if you want it Scotty it's yours Like I said I just want to make sure that it stays in closed loop while i'm driving. Thanks for the offer! Was your stat an OEM stat or aftermarket? I was quite surprised by the shape of this stat, it reminds me of stats in the old days.. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up2ng Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 It's a Delco 195 OEM stat but I'm starting to think I got a Monday morning wax pellet in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Thanks, I hope I get one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blunted Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 I know we all have to just let this engine do its own thing but I can relate to Scotty. Driving in the city, especially the Cross Bronx (worst nightmare) where its just bumper to bumper as far as the eye can see, can get you paranoid when there's nothing to look at besides watching your coolant motivate its way up. Last time I got stuck in that heat/death trap of an expressway I hit 232 with my A/C on... which isn't anything now that I see 240 has been accomplished. I hate when my Eldo is sandwiched in a sea of cars.. its almost cruel, shes always dying to run. -Scotty just FYI.. my water pump, tensioner and all cooling belts are new. This could explain our differences in tempature under the same conditions. I hit >240 last August on a 95+ degree day, on the Cross Bronx and turned my AC off which is good and bad as the fans go off below 222 (i think)... I also believe that as a stat gets old it loses its ability to stay wide open and it can bind. I have all the parts to do the following: new Tensioner new Idler Serp belt (goodyear gatorback) upper hose all molded heater hoses water pump tensioner (belt new) new OEM stat new AC condenser (this will allow me to blow out all of the debris and leaves from the radiator) and a flush of the dexcool So I should be good to go to da bronx to see the Yankees! Now if I can only get away from family obligations I will be able to do this work...Thanks for your NYC insight...where are you located? Manhattan over here.. funny thing, the day after I posted I went out for a drive and hit some serious traffic coming uptown because of that wall that collapsed on the Henry Hudson. I put my AC on in the traffic because I had a hungover passenger and instead of my car running a little cooler since the fans come on, it started running a little on the warm side as I proceeded to hit 234 and hung around the 230-234 range until I finally got moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaddyChris Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Interesting thread...here is something that I thought would be worth mentioning. I did the engine job on the 94 sts ( I meaning my father mostly) but before we did it we tried everything to verify it wasn't the headgasket. We were fiddeling with the water pump and my dad had one from a 97 northstar. Well, it turns out the whole waterjacket was redesigned slightly and the water pump was bigger with bigger fins. We figured we would put this bigger water pump on the 94 to see if it made a difference. (Before the engine swap the coolant temp would be fine for a bit and than under heavy acceleration or anything over 60mph it would overheat and stay hot) We tried to put the newer waterpump in the old water jacket. This did not work, the fins were too big and there was not enough clearance. So we took the waterjacket off and hollowed out some of the aluminum to make clearance for the new fins. Put it all back together and the car still overheated but it was definately more drivable than with the old waterpump. Now I have the new engine in there and with the original waterpump and the highest I've seen is 234 with the AC on in stop and go philly streets winding it up to 4000RPMs. See I like to test to see how high it will go. HAHA, Mike and I's strategies are slightly different. Chris Christopher Petro 94 sts 67 coupe de Ville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up2ng Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 O.K. Scotty don't get jealous but today it was 82 in North Jersey and I had the AC on, in stop and go traffic it never went above 221 ! Maybe you should just change the radiator, you might have a small issue with coolant flow, just a thought. I can tell you I got mine at radiatorbarn.com and it was around 150 shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Is this in your 97 Deville? Amazing!! I go to 222 ordering Burger King or depositing a check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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