Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Ok, well, I think I'm going to do it myself. I'm going to go look at the job Saturday as if I am going to do it myself. Then if I think I can I will try to get it into part of the other building we have . Then I will request vacation time and see if I can bypass the 3 day advance notice they want. I wonder how long of a job it is for an experenced mechanic to do?? I am guessing about 4 hours?? I have no idea. What ever it is I can double it for me I bet. We shal see. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Here is the first part: This does not sound right to me, I don't understand why the valve covers, rocker arms and push rods must come out unless they travel through the intake..... I have not seen that before, I have seen them UNDER the intake.. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Part two: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Thanks Mike. Im printing this and will read it good. Good Night.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
growe3 Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Matt, What engine do you have, a 4.9 or a 4.6? -George Drive'em like you own 'em. - ....................04 DTS............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 George, I think it is a 4.9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Hmm, it looks like the intake completes the top of the head where the valve cover bolts on, they must have done this to lower the profile of the engine. This is a bigger job than I anticipated it to be, but still possible. Matt, that you have mechanical experience will help. My advice is to buy some baggies and group related bolts, mark or tag the rocker arms and push rods and make sure they go back in the same positions, the the end of the push rod that was UP, keep UP. When you get done you will need to adjust the TPS, ISC and Minimum air, I will post those procedures. Don't panic, by the time you get done, you are really going to know this engine, replace ANYTHING that looks questionable. I would imagine that an intake gasket set would provide you with everything you need, but you will need valve cover gaskets. Make sure you mark your distributor, the BASE and the position of the rotor, mark the position on the edge of the distributor, PLUS I would bring the engine up to TDC for safety sake, if you are methodical, you will be ok, if you have a digital camera take some photos at each step to help you assemble it... There are re-assembly instructions, I will post them tonight, I will be out all day tomorrow. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Thank you bbobynski! Hands on knowledge is so valuable, I saved this to my 4.9 folder! I did remember the RTV in the corners however and also have moved the scotchbright out of my garage! Its probably unnecessary to post this now but here are the reinstall steps from the manual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Part 2, and here is the bold tightening sequence, the bolt lengths and torque specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 I was unable to shrink down the Minimum Air, TPS and ISC adjustment procedures to post it here, but you want need that for AWHILE <<<<BIG GRIN>>>>, so send me a PM and I will email them to you when I get back tomorrow night. We are picking up a 7 week old chocolate lab from a breeder in Connecticut tomorrow! Good Luck, I think you have a lot of information now, but like bbobynski said, do some serious analysis, you really should fill the cooling system, pressurize it and localize the leak, you DO NO want to go through this process and not solve the problem. I would not rush into this, but verify what is going on. I think what Brogan told you is erroneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 One more thing comes to mind before I go to bed, I am not sure about proper installation of bolts on an aluminum engine. Would someone clarify these questions? 1) Is the proper procedure for installing these intake manifold bolts to install them dry and just torque them up to the proper torque? 2) Should you wire brush the threads? 3) Should the threads be oiled with motor oil? I know this will change the torque measurement, and it can potentially cause stripped threads if you use oil, so that is why I am asking 4) When should anti-cease compound be used, is it advised on these bolts or any aluminum bolts for that matter? Just some thoughts that go through my mind if I did this job.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHE Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Matt, Did you rent a cooling system pressure tester and verify the source of the leak is the intake gasket???? I would strongly suggest that you do that before going through all the trouble of replacing the intake gasket only to find out that it is still leaking.... Kevin '93 Fleetwood Brougham '05 Deville '04 Deville 2013 Silverado Z71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Good Morning All. I have my pressure tester and am off to my job to look over things again. Guys, Please stop going through any more trouble of copying and posting procedures. After looking over your latest info it all seems over my head. Its just too much and I dont have a shop that I can tie up and lay out parts the way this should be done. It will take me much longer to do this job and my boss would not be to happy. We have room here and there in our buildings but we are not in the car fixing line of work. We have bull dozers and loaders and air compressors and generators and light towers and such in most of the buildings. My shop is geared for what I told you the other day. I'm going now to try and locate the leek. It's just strange that the engine is running like it is sucking air someware. I do feel that there is an intake leek by the way the throttle responce is acting. It is not crisp and fast any more. The RPM hovers and takes its time coming down if you tach it up quick. Well, Im off. More later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Im back from checking more into my car problem.I put the radiator tester on and began to pump it up. It only took 4 Lbs to get the leek to start. It is coming out from the bell housing from the inspection cover that lets you see the fly wheel. I looked as best I could at all the areas around the intake manifold and what I could see of the heads. I looked around the firewall side and I checked around the other side of the engine nearest the grill side. I did pump it up higher to make sure. I did not see it coming from anyware but out of that inspection cover. I also did check those coolent system pipes shown to me in the diagram with the arrows towards the water pump down on the sides. They are all dry. NEXT I then released the pressure and with the pressure tester at 0 Lbs and still on the radiator I started the engine. After about 4 min of runing and temps of around 90 the pressure tester came up to 6 Lbs and then the engine began to stutter and then surge and then almost shut off. Then by itself it came up to 2800Rpm, it was blowing lots of water droplets out of the exhaust but more from the passenger side. ( note- I have noticed more then any other car I had white type exhaust from the mufflers even after I thought it should have been warmed up enough to stop. This has been for maybe the last 3 weeks ) NEXT, I released the pressure but had to put a bucket under because there was unusual amounts of fluid trying to come out the radiator neck. I left the radiator cap off and started the engine and looked in the radiator. The level was about 3" down but then all of a sudden it started to bubble and steam and the level came right up and was pooring out the radiator. I shut it down and looked toward the sky and asked why!! I think, but I'm only guessing it has a blown Head Gasket. But why is there coolent coming out the bell housing inspection cover?? There are no freeze out plugs there right?? I hope I explained what I found good for all you guys. I pulled her back into the storage building at work and with tail between my legs I drove that reck of a pick up back home. Hear I sit thinking holy crapola.. I cant do this repair. How many hours is a job like that given in a shop book?? What cost am I in for?? Im going to grab a shower and will check back in 3/4 hr and through out the rest of the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydone Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 with out trying to alarm anyone but didnt PAT38915 have a similiar problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adallak Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 with out trying to alarm anyone but didnt PAT38915 have a similiar problem This is not a Northstar and we do not know yet what exactly happened. The saddest thing in life is wasted talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Hey Guy, thanks for thinking this through for me. I'm glad I have been able to tell of my findings propperly. If I describe things things wrong, the wrong diags would be the result. Ware I work we have different types of mechanics. We have the Heavy Equipment guys and the Light Equipment guys. I am Light Equipment, no bulldozers or loaders for me. I do everything else under the sun, but Mfgr. specific. A job like the one on my car is not one I would want to tackel. For me to do it right I would need room to lay everything out on benches and tie the car up ware all did not have to be moved for the duration of the job. I have no such place for that. I do have a reasonably trust worthy shop near by that many people I know includeing family members have used for many years. My bigest concern now is how many hours is a job like that worth. Actually I'm wrong, my big concern is ware is the coolent coming from that is pooring out of the bell housing. Why did it take only 4 Lbs of pressure to make it start flowing? Is a head cracked along with bad gaskets? Is there any part of the head below the bell housing cover ware coolent could be flowing from? Wow, so many questions. This is bad!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Matt, that certainly does not sound good. I am wondering if the problem you were having where the car would begin running terrible was related to the head gasket letting loose. Do you recall seeing water vapor coming out of the exhaust during those times? This may have been your problem all along. I am sorry this didn't go smoother for you. You have been a trooper during all of this. If your head is cracked I don't know what your option would be in getting a new on. I think the block is cast iron and the head is aluminum. This is a big job, but you DO have the skills to do it, along with this board. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 One more thing comes to mind before I go to bed, I am not sure about proper installation of bolts on an aluminum engine. Would someone clarify these questions? 1) Is the proper procedure for installing these intake manifold bolts to install them dry and just torque them up to the proper torque? 2) Should you wire brush the threads? 3) Should the threads be oiled with motor oil? I know this will change the torque measurement, and it can potentially cause stripped threads if you use oil, so that is why I am asking 4) When should anti-cease compound be used, is it advised on these bolts or any aluminum bolts for that matter? Just some thoughts that go through my mind if I did this job.. 1) Install them dry 2) Make sure the threads are clean. Wirebrushing is OK but not required if the threads are clean. 3) No. Install them dry. 4) Anti-seize will DRAMATICALLY affect the torque/tension relationship when tightnitng the bolts. I would never recommend it. The bolts aren't aluminum as stated.....I suspect you meant bolts into aluminum holes.... The question about bolts into aluminum holes is a good one to ask but since we were talking about the intake bolts specifically...look at the 4.1/4.5/4.9 construction. The intake bolts go thru an aluminum intake manifold and clamp an aluminum part but the threads that the bolts engage are in the cast iron of the cylinder head. So...these aren't fasteners into aluminum. Thanks Guru, that is good information for my NS, I forgot that the 4.9 block was cast iron, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydone Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 my neighbor had a similiar problem with his 89 vette cast iron block aluminun heads water was leaking from head rear of engine two cans of stop leak fixed the problem i woulld try one then two see if it helps just a thought my neighbor has been driving the car for the last two months the problem has not come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 26, 2005 Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 One more thing comes to mind before I go to bed, I am not sure about proper installation of bolts on an aluminum engine. Would someone clarify these questions? 1) Is the proper procedure for installing these intake manifold bolts to install them dry and just torque them up to the proper torque? 2) Should you wire brush the threads? 3) Should the threads be oiled with motor oil? I know this will change the torque measurement, and it can potentially cause stripped threads if you use oil, so that is why I am asking 4) When should anti-cease compound be used, is it advised on these bolts or any aluminum bolts for that matter? Just some thoughts that go through my mind if I did this job.. 1) Install them dry 2) Make sure the threads are clean. Wirebrushing is OK but not required if the threads are clean. 3) No. Install them dry. 4) Anti-seize will DRAMATICALLY affect the torque/tension relationship when tightnitng the bolts. I would never recommend it. The bolts aren't aluminum as stated.....I suspect you meant bolts into aluminum holes.... The question about bolts into aluminum holes is a good one to ask but since we were talking about the intake bolts specifically...look at the 4.1/4.5/4.9 construction. The intake bolts go thru an aluminum intake manifold and clamp an aluminum part but the threads that the bolts engage are in the cast iron of the cylinder head. So...these aren't fasteners into aluminum. Thanks Guru, that is good information for my NS, I forgot that the 4.9 block was cast iron, thanks Mike, I think the block is aluminum and the heads are cast iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2005 Hi All. I just woke up and came right here. I had to get a nap to try and catch up on sleep. I have not been able to sleep at night lately with all this on my mind. Tonight i will even try and eat a little better. Mike, in answer to your question about water vapor from the exhaust. YES. From the time I bought the car a few months ago I thought it strange to always see vapor from the exhaust. It always got my attention . I could not figure out why. I remember seeing it many times and saying "why is it doing that? The engine is warmed up, it's not like and early AM start, this is strange". So I guess it came with this problem. The car did sit for a long time in a garage not being used. I wonder if during that time the gaskets corroded away. Today when I started it at work it started out running very smooth. Then a few miniuts later it went nuts, almost stalling, then rpm to 2800 then barely idleing again. I went to the exhaust and it was very rich one miniute then clean the next and spitting out water drops. At first I thought more from the left side but it is a single out put. It's not duel from the block, just duel from the cat so it does not matter what side was heaver. If it is a cracked head, and I need another head, is it possible to get one?? I'm thinking ware else would the water be coming from? It must be cracked someware just under the bell housing. BUT- really I'm praying the gasket is blown out leaving a gap for coolent to flow into the bellhousing area. I hope it's possible for that but i have no idea how it is built. I'm pulling at any glimmer of hope right now. I just want my ride back again. I sold a 1987 Lincoln Continental with 58.000Mi on it, garage kept, to but my Seville. I have more pics someware but this one gives you the idea. That lincoln was cherry in and out. The motor was super. When I saw that Seville I fell in love again and had to have it. I should have cept both. What a dummy!! I got to go eat. Im making my self sick. Be back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 One more thing comes to mind before I go to bed, I am not sure about proper installation of bolts on an aluminum engine. Would someone clarify these questions? 1) Is the proper procedure for installing these intake manifold bolts to install them dry and just torque them up to the proper torque? 2) Should you wire brush the threads? 3) Should the threads be oiled with motor oil? I know this will change the torque measurement, and it can potentially cause stripped threads if you use oil, so that is why I am asking 4) When should anti-cease compound be used, is it advised on these bolts or any aluminum bolts for that matter? Just some thoughts that go through my mind if I did this job.. 1) Install them dry 2) Make sure the threads are clean. Wirebrushing is OK but not required if the threads are clean. 3) No. Install them dry. 4) Anti-seize will DRAMATICALLY affect the torque/tension relationship when tightnitng the bolts. I would never recommend it. The bolts aren't aluminum as stated.....I suspect you meant bolts into aluminum holes.... The question about bolts into aluminum holes is a good one to ask but since we were talking about the intake bolts specifically...look at the 4.1/4.5/4.9 construction. The intake bolts go thru an aluminum intake manifold and clamp an aluminum part but the threads that the bolts engage are in the cast iron of the cylinder head. So...these aren't fasteners into aluminum. Thanks Guru, that is good information for my NS, I forgot that the 4.9 block was cast iron, thanks Mike, I think the block is aluminum and the heads are cast iron. Right you are Larry! So that makes it even more incredible that a head is cracked on this engine, although I have seen some heads that are suseptible to cracking (Chevy Monza 4 cylinder head). I don't recall anybody having a 4.9 head crack. Maybe Matt will find its just a gasket.. What concerns me however is that this car sat so long, I am concerned that it had a 50%/50% mix of coolant to take it down low for freezing purposes, I hope that this engine did not crack from freezing while it sat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydone Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 dont u think adding bars leak is worth a try or no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Well personally fixing a problem as bad as Matt's with Bars Leak would concern me as it's a bandaid, and you would never know when its going to pop again.. If your friend only drives his vette for pleasure and it's not a daily driver as Matts car is, he may be able to get away with the Bars Leak. I think Matts leak is a large leak its not a seepage leak... By all means Matt could try the Bars Leak, I just think that with coolant getting into his cylinders as badly as it is in Matts case with it coming out of the exhaust and causing a spontaneous misfire that it's best to fix the root of the problem, but that's my humble opinion.. I am not a big fan of band-aids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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